tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post372041666666041820..comments2023-11-05T04:34:10.303-05:00Comments on The Naked City: Streetcar seems to have momentumUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-13989637821904663362010-01-23T00:08:24.283-05:002010-01-23T00:08:24.283-05:00"Also, Yugoslavia no longer a country, they d..."Also, Yugoslavia no longer a country, they disbanded in the 1990s. If they were not destroyed in there war, they might still be in service, but I doubt you have any proof. Not to mention that comparing Yugoslavia and United States (who have completely different safety rules) is like apple to oranges"<br /><br />But Washington DC's streetcars are still in use in Zagreb, Croatia. <br /><br />"<br /><br /><br /><br />I was simply throwing out examples, I wouldn't favor a electric bus either for same reason as a streetcar. This is a bit silly argument now, because you can have streetcars running on diesel or natural gas too. It just happens this would be electric is all. That's not the same for the commuter line planed for Davidson, which is diesel"<br /><br />You could, but that would be foolish. Diesel engines vibrate and wear out the frame they are mounted in. Anything electric, however, can last far longer.<br /><br />"Engineers would not allow the streetcar to be on a road if falling apart, I can't believe you even believe that is true. Road debris can cause the trolley to jump the tracks; it can even warp tracks if the foundation become compromised."<br /><br />If the road surface gets rough and potholed, that is still not a problem for the trolley, so long as the track itself is okay. In Boston, every spring the one remaining streetcar track becomes a tire and rim killer, and smart drives avoid it. And the trolleys keep on rolling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-1434036119331616822010-01-22T18:34:02.924-05:002010-01-22T18:34:02.924-05:00Wasn't expecting a reply, but ok.
Not true. M...Wasn't expecting a reply, but ok.<br /><br /><i>Not true. Maintenance on old trolleys is a miniscule expense, on the scale of changing the tires on a car. Buses, however, have to be discarded once 10 years' worth of vibrations from the engine shake the frame beyond its safety limits. That's why the former-Yugoslavs are still riding the trolleys we threw out in the 1950s. (The same trolleys. Washington's trolleys were bought by the city of Zagreb in Croatia.)</i><br /><br />This is not true, there was an article in the Observer year ago talking about how they wanted to use the old streetcars of old but couldn't without spending over a million just so they can use them on the light-rail line; but couldn't modify them any further to be safe on the streetcar routes, thus replica versions will have to be purchased.<br /><br />Also, Yugoslavia no longer a country, they disbanded in the 1990s. If they were not destroyed in there war, they might still be in service, but I doubt you have any proof. Not to mention that comparing Yugoslavia and United States (who have completely different safety rules) is like apple to oranges.<br /><br /><i>If the road surface deteriorates, the trolley doesn't mind. Trolley tracks can run on shared roads, on cobblestone, in some cities the tracks are even lined with grass.</i><br /><br />Engineers would not allow the streetcar to be on a road if falling apart, I can't believe you even believe that is true. Road debris can cause the trolley to jump the tracks; it can even warp tracks if the foundation become compromised.<br /><br />Keep in mind that both cars and the streetcar is sharing the same road; this would be a completely different argument if it was a dedicated line, which this is not.<br /><br /><i>Natural gas buses wear out faster than diesel buses. Not recommended. Electric buses are nice, but if you're going to buy them, you might as well go whole hog and install tracks. Electric buses are not that great at changing lanes.</i><br /><br />I was simply throwing out examples, I wouldn't favor a electric bus either for same reason as a streetcar. This is a bit silly argument now, because you can have streetcars running on diesel or natural gas too. It just happens this would be electric is all. That's not the same for the commuter line planed for Davidson, which is diesel.<br /><br />My whole argument to the start was simply the justification of an expensive project that would not have the same benefits of a true rail-line by sharing the same roads as cars. If they decide to shut down the road to all traffic and make it a pedestrian only road with a streetcar, then we are talking of something else entirely... but is certainly not the case here; might as well get the bus.WashuOtakuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16373968014645656779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-29073451107905998842010-01-22T12:13:16.353-05:002010-01-22T12:13:16.353-05:00Save the money and walk. Are people that lazy?Save the money and walk. Are people that lazy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-75046037439477738282010-01-22T11:56:44.292-05:002010-01-22T11:56:44.292-05:00I hope everyone is enjoying the $2.70 gas. It may ...I hope everyone is enjoying the $2.70 gas. It may hit $4 this summer, and probably 7 or 8 dollars a gallon (or worse) within five years. We need to get ready NOW for the post-oil era - cities that don't will wither and die.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-23013500691446183352010-01-22T11:41:35.585-05:002010-01-22T11:41:35.585-05:00Hi Mary,
In response to #3, here is a novel conc...Hi Mary, <br /><br />In response to #3, here is a novel concept that our government officials don't seem to consider. How about letting businesses and consumers decide what they want and honoring that? They want to develop out by 485? Well then build infrastructure to meet the demand.<br /><br />It seems that the government here has all these grand idea of how it is going to shape commerce, shape development, shape the way people use goods and services. Isn't there something wrong with this picture when government shapes the people instead of the other way around?<br /><br />Oh wait, but a streetcar is cute. I forgot about that. My bad.Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02887056520516451016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-48528123497353696822010-01-22T11:30:39.895-05:002010-01-22T11:30:39.895-05:00thanks for the clarifications Mary. And what say ...thanks for the clarifications Mary. And what say you about the $4 Million that's just been lying around unsed? Where did that money come from?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-59579341619824251402010-01-22T11:13:45.480-05:002010-01-22T11:13:45.480-05:00I'll wade in with some answers/facts. Obviousl...I'll wade in with some answers/facts. Obviously, feel free to keep disagreeing with one another on this topic.<br /><br />First, to Anonymous no. 1, crazy though it is, the city's budget is not allowed to fix up the schools. Yell at the county commissioners for that. Further, I don't tell people I don't agree with that they are idiots, and you shouldn't either. I nearly deleted your comment for being insulting but decided to give you a break in order to clarify the much-misunderstood way local money can be spent.<br /><br />Second, in answer to a variety of comments: The reason many cities are building/trying to build streetcars on rails over buses is that, while more expensive, they historically have attracted more development because the rails signal "permanent route" to developers. Bus routes can, and do, change. How much the perceived "yuckiness" of buses vs. perceived "cuteness" of streetcars plays into the greater development is probably a factor but not easy to measure. <br /><br />About the crosstown routes question: I agree, the city does need more. But you also have a chicken-and-egg issue: Do you put more investment into the corridors where ridership is already high - i.e. Central Avenue and Beatties Ford Road? Or invest where it's much lower and hope to build it? Tough call, I'd say.Mary Newsomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12202416766614180007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-74774924860469987502010-01-22T10:48:16.754-05:002010-01-22T10:48:16.754-05:00I submit that the opinions that "buses are fo...I submit that the <i>opinions</i> that "buses are for the lower class" is reason enough to choose streetcar over bus on a SIGNATURE street through OUR center city.<br /><br />In fact, I would venture a guess that 1-out-of-every-10 posters have ever even been on a CATS bus. Assuming I am not incorrect about this guess, I don't think anyone on here has a valid argument for bus/streetcar. You can't google transit numbers and compile "facts" - you must get out on street-level and see the big picture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-10671206903031257452010-01-22T10:20:49.012-05:002010-01-22T10:20:49.012-05:00While we're at it, what about the disconnect b...While we're at it, what about the disconnect between the proposed West Trade train station and the so-called Transit Center on East Trade? That should be addressed before street cars.<br /><br />Of course, I want LYNX underground on this route: Myers Park-SouthPark-Arboretum-485. Just sayin'...:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-69440209362512579852010-01-22T10:20:35.745-05:002010-01-22T10:20:35.745-05:00Go streetcars! Charlotte, you're doing the rig...Go streetcars! Charlotte, you're doing the right thing.consultanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06212860754280555647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-34382586983074173312010-01-22T10:15:33.045-05:002010-01-22T10:15:33.045-05:00The street car is the worst of both worlds:
1. Y...The street car is the worst of both worlds:<br /><br />1. You still get caught in heavy traffic just like a car.<br /><br />2. There is no versatility unlike cars.<br /><br />Its a lose-lose situation!<br /><br />The street car is the most expensive and unversatile bus ever. If you can make a light rail train or similar work to the airport, I'll ride it every time. But I'm not riding the street car and this is coming from someone who voted FOR the transit tax and rides the Lynx frequently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-44904298871861042542010-01-22T09:52:09.943-05:002010-01-22T09:52:09.943-05:00I’m all for more public, mass transportation where...I’m all for more public, mass transportation where it is really needed in this region, but this streetcar obsession just doesn’t make much sense. Why not spend $25 million to buy flying carpets to whiz tourists up and down Trade/Elizabeth? That project would have the same chance of coming to useful fruition. <br /><br />Other than as a pastime for bored tourists, or for assuaging the political feelings of minority groups who live along the route’s logical extension, what advantage does the streetcar line offer to metro area commuters? <br /><br />Let’s see, I could take a bus to the light rail line, get off at the Transit Center uptown, then catch the streetcar to the hospital. Or, I could take a bus to the light rail line, get off at the Transit Center uptown, then catch a bus to the hospital.<br /><br />Maybe if they’ll let me clang the trolley bell it will be worthwhile taxwise.JDCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-56671255891788715362010-01-22T09:41:56.130-05:002010-01-22T09:41:56.130-05:00I like itI like itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-67703613212150871442010-01-22T09:30:09.908-05:002010-01-22T09:30:09.908-05:00Old Streetcars have to be refurbished to stay cons...<i>Old Streetcars have to be refurbished to stay constantly viable; also safty measures change and must undergo expensive retro-fits to keep up in code.</i><br /><br />Not true. Maintenance on old trolleys is a miniscule expense, on the scale of changing the tires on a car. Buses, however, have to be discarded once 10 years' worth of vibrations from the engine shake the frame beyond its safety limits. That's why the former-Yugoslavs are still riding the trolleys we threw out in the 1950s. (The same trolleys. Washington's trolleys were bought by the city of Zagreb in Croatia.)<br /><br /><i><br />Streetcars tracks are on the exact same roads that need to be resurfaced after every so many years. So what's your point?</i><br /><br />If the road surface deteriorates, the trolley doesn't mind. Trolley tracks can run on shared roads, on cobblestone, in some cities the tracks are even lined with grass. <br /><br /><i><br />Buses use natural gas and electric too, and cities including Charlotte utilize these none-diesel buses.<br /></i><br /><br />Natural gas buses wear out faster than diesel buses. Not recommended. Electric buses are nice, but if you're going to buy them, you might as well go whole hog and install tracks. Electric buses are not that great at changing lanes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-53823838388485857622010-01-22T09:09:01.361-05:002010-01-22T09:09:01.361-05:001. Streetcars last for decades. Even 100 year old ...<i>1. Streetcars last for decades. Even 100 year old streetcars are still running in some places. Buses shake themselves to bits within 10 years.</i><br /><br />Old Streetcars have to be refurbished to stay constantly viable; also safty measures change and must undergo expensive retro-fits to keep up in code. <br /><br /><i>2. Streetcar tracks last for decades without maintenance, and the maintenance is a quick overnight job. Roads used by buses have to be resurfaced.</i><br /><br />Streetcars tracks are on the exact same roads that need to be resurfaced after every so many years. So what's your point?<br /><br /><i>3. Streetcars get their juice from whatever you have. Buses require diesel, and if diesel fuel gets pricy, sucks to be you.</i><br /><br />Buses use natural gas and electric too, and cities including Charlotte utilize these none-diesel buses.<br /><br />I'm sorry Anonymous, I just punched holes in all three points.WashuOtakuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16373968014645656779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-8532862894793865802010-01-22T08:32:46.418-05:002010-01-22T08:32:46.418-05:00This isn't rocket science, people:
1. Streetc...This isn't rocket science, people:<br /><br />1. Streetcars last for decades. Even 100 year old streetcars are still running in some places. Buses shake themselves to bits within 10 years. <br /><br />2. Streetcar tracks last for decades without maintenance, and the maintenance is a quick overnight job. Roads used by buses have to be resurfaced. <br /><br />3. Streetcars get their juice from whatever you have. Buses require diesel, and if diesel fuel gets pricy, sucks to be you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-49931530717532828412010-01-22T07:27:35.451-05:002010-01-22T07:27:35.451-05:00Senator elect Brown can handle this lunacy.
By ...Senator elect Brown can handle this lunacy.<br /><br /><br /><br />By the way local government the people are speaking loudly on this issue, heed up and heel down.Algernonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15295015805726494828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-33235897994251587692010-01-21T23:25:56.377-05:002010-01-21T23:25:56.377-05:00This is a joke that will cost taxpayers millions o...This is a joke that will cost taxpayers millions of dollars.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-24038932739158608892010-01-21T23:25:46.145-05:002010-01-21T23:25:46.145-05:00This is ludicrous. What possesses these people to...This is ludicrous. What possesses these people to build ridiculously expensive pet projects that will just cause even MORE traffic congestion? Oh wait, it's not actually their own money they're spending. <br /><br />Why don't they spend the magically "found" millions on building some of those unfunded walking trails? <br /><br />How about expanding 485, which actually NEEDS the funding? Hmm.. I didn't think so. It's not stylish, and district 5 would never vote democratic regardless. Oh well. So much for common sense.Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02887056520516451016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-88175505216990735712010-01-21T22:57:15.514-05:002010-01-21T22:57:15.514-05:00Please SOMEONE answer the following question:
Nam...Please SOMEONE answer the following question:<br /><br />Name one way... just ONE way... in which streetcars are ACTUALLY better at moving people around than buses.<br /><br />The streetcar is a gigantic waste of money and anyone who votes to support it deserves to be tied to the tracks and run over by it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-46628710586871523642010-01-21T22:23:55.356-05:002010-01-21T22:23:55.356-05:00Told ya so. All those who werent paying attention ...Told ya so. All those who werent paying attention this why those Developers along Liz dumped so much money into Foxx's Campaign. (Foxx's HQ was right along the new proposed 1st leg) <br /><br />And now Foxx's new bosses get to sell not only buses but street cars to the city. (they also dumped tons of cash into the campaign but the Observer refuses to talk about it) <br /><br />It would be very interesting for someone to add up all that money that flowed into Foxx's coffers but we no the Observer got its man elected so they arent interested in the details. <br /><br />The Joke is on East and West Charlotte that they think the Trolley will ever extend to them. Again the you are just pawns in the game - all in the name of development for economically depressed communities but in reality just for the rich to get richer. Right Mr. Grubb? Remember when you showed up and called called the Council Liars 3 years back because they promised to build you the Trolley for you new development but then said they didnt have that authority -Looks like they came through for you this time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-59336477202363442812010-01-21T22:05:19.042-05:002010-01-21T22:05:19.042-05:00OMG! $12M for a rail car that LOOKS historic? Ple...OMG! $12M for a rail car that LOOKS historic? Please tell me you are kidding. Give me $200 to buy some sandpaper and spray paint, and I'll make your new car look historic. Unbelievable. <br /><br />This was just covered on John Stossel's show tonight. http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2010/01/21/the-rail-scam/<br /><br />More insight found here... http://www.cato.org/people/pub_list.php?auth_id=211&pub_list=1Andyhttp://andydenton.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-64452455609575788332010-01-21T21:47:49.879-05:002010-01-21T21:47:49.879-05:00"I have to say, it always amazes me how city ..."I have to say, it always amazes me how city managers can find little pockets of millions of dollars just when their council member bosses need them. $4 million for "Smart Growth"? Who knew?"<br /><br />Indeed. More transparency please. Where was this money during the last vote for streetcar funding?<br /><br />Build out the main corridors of the LYNX system first. Then add the streetcars, if there's any money left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-16215197904414795712010-01-21T21:36:40.522-05:002010-01-21T21:36:40.522-05:00I'm all for public transportation improvements...I'm all for public transportation improvements, but streetcars are worthless. It is better to simply have buses on a route where they can avoid traffic snarls and jams than have a fixed line that cannot avoid such traffic.<br /><br />It is our only hope that the Federal Government will see through this too as a waist and refuse to fund the streetcar project.WashuOtakuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16373968014645656779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19601020.post-75322540170127083942010-01-21T20:08:00.148-05:002010-01-21T20:08:00.148-05:00Implement term limits!Implement term limits!diggndeepernoreply@blogger.com