Tuesday, October 10, 2006

Why derailing transit would be stupid

I’m just back from almost two weeks in Italy (bless those Frequent Flyer miles). While I was gone, there’s been more fractiousness over mass transit in Charlotte, including a lot of talk by some antediluvian county commissioners about forcing a do-over vote on the half-cent sales tax for transit.

Like a lot of folks, they think the light rail (and bus and streetcar) mass transit system Charlotte is building will be a waste of money. They’re wrong. Obviously, the transit system should be built as efficiently and cost-effectively as possible. Like many people, I have some concerns about that.

Just as obviously, if there are major problems with a contractor – such as Parsons Transportation – that are costing millions, Charlotte Area Transit System leaders and the city manager should be more open about it, earlier on. Their behavior smacks of secretiveness.

But many of the transit critics seem oblivious to this: The system isn’t being built for 2010, or 2015 or even 2025. It’s being built for 2050 and 2100 and beyond – for the future, when Charlotte traffic will be as horrendous as Milan’s and Rome’s.

We had one experience that shows clearly why rail is the better option for as many transit corridors as we can afford it on:

We flew into Milan and had train reservations from Milan to Florence. Unlike Rome, in Milan there’s no rail service from the international airport at Malpensa, about 30 miles out, to the central train station. There is, however, a bus for just 5 Euros.

Problem is, we made the trip at rush hour – 7:30 a.m. As the autostrada traffic ground to a halt over and over, I began to fear we’d miss our 10 a.m. train. The trip took almost 2 hours. In light traffic (our return journey last Saturday afternoon) the trip took only half as long.

Unlike bus transit, rail isn’t slowed by heavy traffic. The journey is reliable and predictable.

Fast forward to Rome, last Friday. As happens in Italy, a strike had been called – this time for the city’s bus and Metro system. All day, until buses began to run again about 6 p.m., the streets were at a standstill. As tourists just walking around, we weren’t inconvenienced. It was even easier to cross the street: Just tread your your way between stopped cars. But for people trying to work or run businesses, it was a nightmare.

To resort to a cliche, Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither will Charlotte be. If growth continues, even more slowly than today, this place will be huge someday. Without reliable, workable options to private auto travel, it will grind to a stop, as Rome did on Friday. The most cost-effective way to build a rail transit system is to do it before the place grows as dense and expensive as, say, Rome. The later you wait, the harder and more costly it is.

That final lesson is proved by the problems Rome has had for decades trying to build and expand its subway system, which is far less extensive than in cities such as Paris, London, New York and Boston. The trouble is that in a 2,500-year-old city, they can’t dig tunnels without bumping into archaeological treasures and ancient ruins.

In Charlotte we don’t have that excuse. Yet.

90 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great point Mary, about the light rail being built for the year 2100.

Why don't we let the citizens decide THEN how much of their tax money they want squandered on this black hole.

Anonymous said...

Mary,

Great viewpoint that will be lost on many of the people in Charlotte.

Charlotte has light rail now like it or not so people better start liking it and using it or they are not makeing good use of the money they have paid into it.

Charlotte needs to speed up the line going North to Huntersville. This line will be the cheapest since it uses existing rails and could get up and running quicker than any other line.

Charlotte needs to push to finish Independence freeway and have buses run from Matthews to Downtown use Charter busses which are nicer than the CATS standard bus and people will ride it

Charlotte to help the East side needs to look at doing Light rail down Central to Eastland. If that doesn't happen then we should just close the mall and call it dead.

Charlotte should then try to figure out a way to access the Univeristy area using Light Rail to NODA area.

Charlotte needs to do light rail to the airport because if Memphis can propose doing light rail from their airport to a downtown for the same price of the south leg who is really controling where the light rail is built?

Memphis Downtown is dead... there is major businesses that call downtown home and Suntrust is planning on closing its offices downtown.

Anonymous said...

Can't wait to hear Rick and everyone eleses mindless chatter.
Go Light Rail GO !!!!!!!

Can't wait !

Anonymous said...

Stay the course.

Let's get the first lne built and running, watch how it does, and then decide whether or not to go on with the rest. I have a feeling that the system will prove popular once it is up and running.

Danimal

Anonymous said...

Brad,

Slow down, my friend. The dirty little secret that Mary and the uptown shiny-shoe crowd like to ignore:

Transit here no longer qualifies for federal funding.

Couple that with the fact that the majority of the public feels duped by McCrory et al and I don't think you're gonna see much after the South Line.

Don't get me wrong: Milan, Paris, Rome are all charming cities but I think the transit advocates aren't telling the whole story.

Anonymous said...

I have a feeling it will share the same trait that the Boston and Cleveland trains that we took this summer shared:

A strong stench of urine.

Cato said...

I'm not sure why Mary's experiences in her recent travels makes any salient point about the current rail controversey.

In Milan, she apparently scheduled her trip so that she would be heading to the city during rush hour, and thinks it's a problem that it takes a while. Is the Milan workforce equally surprised every day? I doubt it. Rather, being familiar with their surroundings, they probably PLAN for the delays and act accordingly. There may be good reasons for having light rail, but Mary having a bad travel agent hardly qualifies. As for Rome, the fact of a transit strike seems to make a point for rail opponents. You're effectively putting city transportation at the mercy of a small interest group.

As for Charlotte's anticipated enormous population growth, who will be hiring them? Charlotte's ability to attract new businesses has been declining for several years now, and at least two of the major employers in town are moving jobs overseas as fast as they can. Further, native-born U.S. population growth is more or less static, and has been for some time.

Regarding buses vs. rail: I've regularly used the buses to get to & from work since I moved here several years ago. Even living several miles from Center City, I know that if I catch a particular bus, it'll almost always put me at the Transportation Center within two or three minutes of the appointed time.

The most galling thing about the rail boosters is their fanaticism that we should incur the enormous extra costs of rail (approx. $45 million per mile vs. about $700 thousand for buses) because they can't stand to sully themselves sitting on a bus. Maybe they'll give out kerosene rags at the rail stations for riders to tie around their ankles.

Anonymous said...

45 years ago there was no Metro system in Washington D.C. Can you imagine if the elected officials in DC had not made the hard choices at that time to move forward with what I am sure many thought was a "boondoggle" at that time? 45 years from now I believe we will be thankful that our elected officials today stuck it out when we have N, NE, South and SE and West rapid tranit lines in place, while places in Atlanta have no transportation choices and are stuck in perpetual congestion.

Anonymous said...

To think Charlote's growth is going to stop suddenly in the next few years is not wise. Back in the 80's, a string of anti-growth city councils thought they could curb growth by not building or expanding roads, let alone implementing a public transit system. Had they had some forsight, perhaps I-485 would have been completed now and we'd have the proper number of lanes, not to mention having more schools built, transit planned ahead, etc. Look what that backward kind of thinking brought us. In my 20 years here, Charlotte has doubled in size and an even larger critical mass of people have been moving in over the last 5 years alone. Those jobs are coming from somewhere, and I don't see this growth ending any time soon.

Let's wait and see what light rail does when it opens. Systems in Minneapolis, Dallas and Salt Lake, among tohers, have had much higher usage than anticipated. Now they can't expand them fast enough. Write back in 2008 and let's see who laughs last.

Anonymous said...

If transit is a "boondoogle", than roads are too. Roads are always over budget, always delayed, and always end up just as congested, if not more congested than before.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you whole-heartedly Mary

Anonymous said...

Mary ties light rail in with buses. The two are not related except in being mass transit, but it is probably done intentionally to 'dirty the water'.

The question should be, as others have stated, rail vs buses. The fact is people will keep and use their cars as long as possible. So the question is not about car use, but transporting people to and from places where regular routes can be expected to have riders.

Buses, similar to cars, can be used to go on any street. Rail, as being designed in Charlotte, and most other locations, is only used radially. It can only serve uptown and its spokes. So the $500,000,000 for the south line will only serve those on the south line or downtown. Conversely, a road built serves many more people than just those going from one place on the road to another.

We would all be better served with an expanded, flexible bus system, which serves the people much like UPS or Fedex, than a rail system which is limited in scope, and must, by its nature remain inflexible, no matter where the jobs or housing.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mary,

Glad to have you back. I was beginning to think the shame of this latest debacle had left even you speechless. It's good to see that there are a few blindly following true believers still out there. It makes my job of pointing out the truth so much easier with the background of all these lies.

First of all, as I said in my last post on the previous thread, if light rail stops after the South Corridor, it will be purely because of the lies and mismanagement committed by its supporters – not because of people like me. It may be the end of the mayor’s political career, and it could be the driving force behind reforming the corruption that is the Great State of Mecklenburg. Good things all around as far as I’m concerned.

Definition of an•te•di•lu•vi•an
1. Extremely old and antiquated. See synonyms of old.
2. Bible. Occurring or belonging to the era before the Flood.

You might want to look up the definitions of the words you use before they make you look foolish.

I’m not the one chasing 19th century technology to solve a 22nd century problem.

Why not support telecommuting for the Uptown computer based workforce? Why not propose more express bus routes and HOT lanes to move the suburbanites around more efficiently during rush hour? Why not support more neighborhood schools with sane busing policies to reduce the drop off/pick up trips for the kids? Why not support the bio-diesel co-op in North Mecklenburg?

Why not? Because light rail has absolutely nothing to do with congestion or pollution, that’s why. These are the two biggest lies told repeatedly by the light rail supporters. As quoted by poster Brad, the main driver of light rail is development in the places they choose to support their motives.

We hear repeatedly that light rail is required for Charlotte to meet the 2010 deadline for reduced ozone pollution, or Charlotte loses highway funding. This is a lie. We may lose the funding, but it won’t be because of a lack of light rail. The South Corridor will be the only line in operation by then, and it will carry hardly a fraction of 1 percent of the daily trips in the region. Regardless, our air is getting cleaner anyway as evidenced by the dramatically falling number of red air quality days in the past few years. I believe we’ve had zero days so far this year. (Check out Charmeck.org if you don't believe me.)

As the region grows, air quality could get worse. I’ll admit that. But, light rail will do nothing to stop it – only cleaner cars can do that.

Congestion is a different matter. More highways to far out locations probably makes the overall regional problem worse. We simply cannot build eight lane highways to Salisbury, Statesville, Gastonia, Rock Hill, and Union County. However, we should be able to build a sane beltway and repair the roads we have already - if only we could find the money.

I wonder where it all went?

Anonymous said...

Well, Rick said...you said it best...

Unknown said...

Brad,
As a resident of the East Side, I appreciate your plug for transit down Central Ave. Currently the transit plan calls for streetcars down Central from the downtown area to Eastland Mall. A transit mall is being planned at the Eastland parking lot.

I believe this project needs to be moved up on the priority list due to the economic stress that the east side is facing. The streetcar will be great shot in the arm for the east side. It will also serve as a good link for the east side to the downtown which I believe will be an economic stimulus.

Anonymous said...

Rick - the money for light rail has nothing to with roads. NCDOT (the state) controls most of the roads everyone complains about it (I-85, I-77, I-485, and even Providence Road). It is the state's fault for our crappy road system. The city and county have no control over I-485.

$450 million wouldn't even exist without light rail - most of it came from the feds. The transit sales tax only raises about $65 million a year. And it is only half a cent - what are you gonna do with half a cent? Are you really that cheap? I really wish people would educate themselves before making their stupid comments!

Anonymous said...

I too am a bus rider. My main complaint about the bus is I can't get a "straight line" transfer. Will we be able to get on and off a train without paying again? The bus goes past a Harris Teeter on my way home. If I could get off, do a quick shopping, and get back on the next bus without paying another fare, I would do so. On days I need something from the store, I take my car. Also, the bus service to my neighborhood stops after 7 PM and does not run at all on Sunday. So, no bus for me on a night I'm meeting friends for supper and no bus on Sunday to Panthers games or the Main library.

There is a bus line to the airport. But it is very crowded and it is difficult dragging more than one little suitcase on and off a bus. And there is no parking anywhere near the uptown bus station at a reasonable rate, especially when there is an "event" at the arena.

I would love to support good transit options. CATS is making it hard to do so.

Anonymous said...

To say that Light Rail in Charlotte will not be a "waste of money" is very naive. It will be a huge waste of money. If the ticket price were to cover the cost of building the nine mile stretch. it would be like $91.00 per ticket, based off of the Mass transit reports. They also state that light rail will do nothing to alleviate traffic or reduce pollution. Ridership will be abysmally low. So why build it. Sounds like a waste of money.

Your point on building it for future generations 50 or even 100 years from now is very short cited. Anything in charlotte that's older than 10 years old gets torn down. There's no way in the world that a mass transit system would last that long. Even in places like New York, old transit systems get replaced often. So why build it? Why waste the money. I hope that it doesn't pass.

Anonymous said...

ahhh mg,

I was waiting for that light rail canard. Thanks for the opening.

Of course I know that the federal money is for mass transit and not roads. I also know that NCDOT has official responsibility for the roads and not the city/county. However, both of those things do not relieve the city officials of their fiduciary responsibility to effectively handle taxpayer money.

$65 million per year would go a very long way to paying for our much needed road improvements.

I didn't say repeal the sales tax anywhere in my post (another lie by light rail supporters, btw). In fact, I would gladly support keeping it - maybe even increasing it a little - if the money would not be wasted. However, Parks Helms won't give the voters the chance to even voice that opinion.

8 years ago we were told this whole system would cost $1 billion. It is now estimated at $6 billion. I think most people would be smart enough to see that there has to be a better way.

Anonymous said...

Based on Charlotte's growth (I've been seeing 80,000 people a year), how much worse will traffic have to get for folks to agree to have a mass transit system? Rail makes the most sense because it is the most efficient way of getting a bunch of people from point A to point B. The current infrastructure we have is not good and will get much, much worse over time.

Are folk thinking the CONCEPT is bad or the EXECUTION of the idea by our local officials? If it's the latter then start making some changes on 11/7.

Anonymous said...

Let's face it. When it comes to Light Rail, taxpayers are screwed. In Charlotte, Republicans and Democrats alike are in the back pocket of the Developers and the Bankers, who are in bed with each other. (Except for McCrory, who has moved around to the front pocket) Light rail will not reduce congestion or pollution. Its only purpose is to spur development along the corridor it is being built along. Period. Developers will get rich at taxpayers expense. I am not anti-transit. I ride the bus almost everyday. I am not even against the fat cats making money - but it is not fair for them to make money at the taxpayers expense. Especially when the city has so many more pressing needs.

Anonymous said...

Not getting the analogy, Mary. Many people want to travel from Milan to Florence -- but I don't know anyone who wants to go to Pineville.

Anonymous said...

Anon,

The 80,000 figure reported in the Observer on September 24, 2006 is for the “Charlotte region” - Mecklenburg and the surrounding counties - not just Charlotte proper. This is a perfect example of using a number and semantics to skew an argument. (Done by the Observer, not you.)

Also reported in the Observer on May 21, 2006, 80% of the region's projected new homes are in the surrounding counties - not Mecklenburg.

www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/
news/14634778.htm

Most of the region's growth will be outside the reach of mass transit within Mecklenburg. To answer your question, I take issue with both the method and execution of implementing a mass transit plan for the region. An ill-conceived plan based on the region’s growth patterns combined with poor implementation resulted in the current high-priced mess we are seeing.

A complete reassessment of the approach is needed.

On one thing we agree, the vote on Nov 7th is important and the only way change will be achieved.

Anonymous said...

Charlotte is so behind, a light rail system should have been built twenty years ago and the system should be expanding at this point. I agree with Brad, mass transit is needed in areas like East Charlotte and Independence Blvd. I hope the trains will run more frequent than the buses, and stops are conveniently located through out the area. One benefit of a mass transit system is the convenience of walking to a train or bus. Mass transit is about convenience and right now Charlotte doesn't offer that.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I'm ashame to say I live in Charlotte,NC.
Some of you people are so backwards in your thinking, there is no hope for you.
If you folks want to keep pretending that Charlotte is some sleepy country town,then you really need a reality check!

Anonymous said...

To all who support this particular light rail project:

Read Rebecca's post.
Read it again.

The top 10 US cities for congestion and pollution also have rail transit. So, our rail will not do anything for traffic or pollution.

Read Rebecca's post again.

This is about high density development to control a tax base.

All of you rail supporters need to admit that.

And no, those of us who question the competency, management and "vision" of the Transit commission are not backwoods, non-progressive thinking, country folk who all drive SUVs.
If any of the commission members have any sense of planning, they would have known in 1998 to plan for cost increases...business 101...and should have let the taxpayers know all along as the increases were projected; not this summer.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about any of you hicks, but I go to UNCC and I would love to have a train connecting the school to downtown, NoDa, South End, etc. I know I will graduate before then, but I feel for the rest of the future students. Having to drive everywhere SUCKS. Please don't screw this up - do not derail transit!!!

Anonymous said...

Rick - even if we had $65 million (a good chunk of that is used for buses too), we wouldn't have many roads to work with. Like I said, most of the roads are under the control of the state. The city/county would have to buy the road from the state if they wanted to do anything to it.

I want to know why the Observer and the local news isn't making a big stink about I-485 - how it is over budget again, delayed again, and still isn't complete after 15 years, with half of it built with inadequate lanes.

Anonymous said...

OK - of course those cities have bad traffic congestion - they have a lot of people. Take NY for example. With a metro area of 20 million people, the traffic could be A LOT worse. Imagine how horrible it would be if there was no transit. Look at the otherside of the picture!

Anonymous said...

CHARLOTTE IS A CITY. IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE CITIES, PLEASE MOVE TO GASTON COUNTY. THERE ARE PLENTY OF TREES AND MOBILE HOMES THERE.

Anonymous said...

Well Atlanta has bad traffic congestion and a crappy transit system. They keep widening roads and that doesn't seem to work either. Atleast transit helps FUTURE congestion. It's not going to stop current congestion. Traffic you see now is most likely going to stay the way it is. Transit can help stop the growth of congestion, and it gives people options.

Anonymous said...

Mary, before there is anymore talk of transit, can you give these retards the facts (where the money comes from, why we even have it, how the roads are out of the cities control, etc) so they can educate themselves.

Anonymous said...

PLEASE EXTEND THE TRAIN TO UNCC! Us college students would be very grateful to have it!

Anonymous said...

Duh...

What is your point...that we need a subway, too? Otherwise we might have worse congestion?

The NY subway was being built long before most people had cars.

Charlotte is trying to build something long after we had cars...

In either case, rail does not reduce congestion.

Population increase will continue to add more cars...plus not everyone will have a route to take ( train or bus ).

So, please, just admit you really want the train because you think its cool...and then we can be like a real city...right?

In NYC, most people still don't own a car...its the sheer population that makes it crowded...but NYC is built entirely different than Charlotte.
They are built around a city center ( they ARE a city center). Charlotte is a cluster of suburbs with a small downtown.

Anonymous said...

Seems like poster "FedUp" wants the advantages of the big city and the feel of a small town,without paying the cost to be the boss.

Anonymous said...

What everyone forgets is Charlotte was way ahead of its time and other cities with the tolley lines that connected area's like Dilworth and Plaza Midwood to the Downtown area....

What happened was the invention of the car and the tolley at that time was a private company and guess who bought it.... FORD... and guess that they did... Closed it down and ripped out the tracks.

What I had wished is that Charlotte would of taken a look at the next step in rail and did a monorail of a maglift train.

Anonymous said...

I agree with FED UP that Charlotte is made up of a bunch of smaller area's but the problem is that people may live in one area but work in another. If everyone lived in the area where they worked we wouldn't have a traffic problem.

Our current transit system doesn't allow for this type of movement.

A solution would be to create smaller transit centers in each area and have local buses that pick people up take to their local hub and then they can transfer to any of the other Hubs.

Anonymous said...

Jimmy, exactly what advantages does Charlotte (the city) provide that Fed Up does not want to pay for? Do you really think we are getting our money's worth? That Charlotte's leaders have been good stewards of our money? If you really believe that, and think we are hicks for not blindly handing over our money in the name of altruistic future building, then why stop at forking over 40-50% to govco - why don't you, Jimmy Mac, step up and give them a 100%? I'm sure in return Parks and Pat would set you up in comfy public housing and give you a bus pass so you could enjoy all of the "advantages" of the city. Heck, they might even throw in a brown shirt!

Anonymous said...

Hey Jimmy Mac,

My problem with this rail project is that it was ill planned. Now we are stuck with what to do next.
I'd be happier about paying for the right thing and this project is not it.

I agree with Brad that perhaps some smaller hubs that feed into major hubs might be a better solution short term. It seems that right now not all bus routes are planned to have direct transfers and get across the city without transferring downtown.

I would like to have seen the rail lines follow the major highways and beltway first...with feeder stations after. That way, all the people from outlying areas could take the train along the same 77 or 85 or 485 route. Buses could take you from your neighborhood to the station instead of having to drive your car.

It seems like the idea of this project was to use the existing railway to get quick federal funding. No one was bright enough to think through the long term costs...and yet some expect us to congratulate these "planners" on their "foresight" to give Charlotte a transit system of the future.

Sorry, we need another plan.
Smaller hubs and more buses in the short term to plan for the long term is better than forcing a rail plan that only serves to fund the high density development along South Blvd.

Anonymous said...

...and that's not to say my idea is even cost effective...I don't know. But it makes sense to have the rail lines ( if we have to have rail ) follow where the heaviest traffic is...

Anonymous said...

In response to poster Rebecca,nowhere in my post do i refer to anyone being "hicks" or bring up the topic of welfare,but your response prove a point that many new folks to the area think and feel.
That native Charlotte folks are very slow to discuss new ideals and change when it's to the advantage of the city as a whole!

Anonymous said...

That is my point -- that it is NOT to the advantage of the whole, but to the advantage of a (privileged) few. Wasn't referring to welfare per se - just that Govco thinks they "Know best" what to do with our money, and if you agree then hand it all over! If you raise your hand and say, wait a minute, lets put some thought into this, you are "selfish", "backwards" etc. Like not rolling over is somehow unsophisticated...everyone is afraid to say the Emperor's backside is showing...

Anonymous said...

Um, the South Light Rail Line parallels South Boulevard which parallels I-77...

Anonymous said...

Rick, you can't use percentages to compare growth in different counties. A county with 100,000 people will have a higher percentage growth rate than a county with 800,000.

Anonymous said...

All construction materials for roadways, transit, buildings, etc (basically any project that requires steel, asphalt, or concrete in large amounts) has gone WAY over budget in the last 2-3 years. It's just a fact of life people must deal with if things are to be built in today's economy. You can thank CHINA (not our elected officials) for the cost over-runs. China is undergoing an economic BOOM right now and is driving the cost of building materials up.

Anonymous said...

As usual the Charlotte Observer didn't tell the whole story and they leave their readers with the wrong impression. Some facts they left out of their story.

San Diego Oceanside LRT
Original FFGA: $351.5M
Ammended FFGA: $440M
25% increase of FFGA
Currently Under Construction

San Francisco Airport BART
Original FFGA: $1.054B
Ammended FFGA: $1.552B
47% increase of FFGA
Completed 2003

San Juan Tren Urbano
Origianl FFGA: $1.25B
Ammended FFGA: $2.25B
80% increase of FFGA
Completed 2006

For comparison:
Charlotte South LRT
Origianal FFGA: $426.85M
Ammended FFGA: $462M
8% increase of FFGA
Under Construction

As you can see by comparison, Charlotte's cost over-runs are minimal.

Anonymous said...

Also notice in the previous post that those cities are larger and denser than Charlotte. This just goes to show how the longer you wait, the more expensive it gets.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Rebecca if I didn't know better you sound just like that guy on the radio from 9 until noon with this "govco" talk.
How many transit meeting have you anti-light rail folks attended?
From my count at the meeting i have attended in the past year not many?

Anonymous said...

Oh Boo Hoo - your half a cent worth of tax money.

Anonymous said...

Yep, your half a cent worth of tax money that you don't even have to spend because it is a sales tax. Just don't buy anything - that way you can starve, and save all of us a lot of trouble.

Anonymous said...

Einstein,

Very good, you understand math. So do I.

Look at the link I provided for reference. The 80% I quoted was for the total number of housing units projected to be built in the region. That directly compares to the region level population increase reported in the Observer.

22K units for Mecklenburg out of a total of 109K for the region means 80% of the new housing will be outside of CharMeck.

You are correct though on one thing. The percentage increase outside CharMeck will be faster for some counties than for Mecklenburg itself - which was exactly my point.

Nice try.

Anonymous said...

:-p
What does population density have to do with cost overruns?

So, your logic dictates that less populated cities shouldn't have as high a cost overrun as a larger city? You make no sense...

I have a great life and I want a subway from the Arboreteum to downtown.

Anonymous said...

And how big is the region? The Charlotte Region consists of about 2.3 million people living in sixteen counties in two different states, 12 counties in North Carolina and 4 in South Carolina.

Thats 109,000 units spread across 15 (not counting Mecklenburg) counties. If you split that evenly, that is about 7,300 units per county (obviously some counties are going to have more units than 7,300 and more units than other counties. For example, Union County is growing at a pretty fast rate, as well as York County). Then you have Mecklenburg, with 22,000 units. Which is growing more?

Anonymous said...

Fed Up, the more populated/densely populated a city gets, the more expensive it is to build transit. DUH.

Anonymous said...

Fed Up, if you open up your little brain you would see that what I was saying is that the longer you wait, the more expensive it is to build transit. When Charlotte is much larger, it will obviously be more expensive to build the South Line than it is today, and it would most certainly have larger cost over-runs.

Anonymous said...

Again with the lies...

Look at the link, or are you afraid to know the truth? Of course you are...

9 counties, not 16. Those were the same for both population growth and housing.

The 22K housing is a smaller percentage for Mecklenburg than the 11K is for Iredell and the 20K for Union which I think was Einstein's point. That is true, but has nothing to do with the point that I was trying to make.

When you use the regional population growth as a reason for light rail it makes no sense because most of that growth in raw numbers is outside of Mecklenburg county and will NOT be using light rail.

They would use the express busses though.

Anonymous said...

I could care less about all this crap, as long as retards like Rick don't stop it from being built!!

Anonymous said...

Hmm, thats funny Rick, because Charlotte USA defines the Charlotte region as 16 counties.

Anonymous said...

That may be, but I was comparing two Charlotte Observer articles with eachother. The housing starts story stating that the numbers included only the 9 counties of Mechlenburg and the immediate bordering counties. The other says Mecklenburg and the "surrounding counties" for the 80000 population figure.

If you want to spread the 80000 new residents over more counties that's fine with me, it most likely makes my arguement stronger.

Anonymous said...

First of all....
Rick is far from being a retard, he's obviously well read, and has done some research, and maybe his plan of different centers for transit is not a bad idea, in fact it is a fabulous idea, it just needs some tweeking. Honestly I'm tired of stupid people who have made remarks such as calling someone a retard or an idiot. Rick has formed creative critisism for Mary's post, nothing else. He has also formed creative critisims for other posts as well.
The problem lies in a word or two that he typed; short-term solution, light rail is a long term solution. Honestly I think if people in this city would take the time to research this project there would be more support.
There are some problems Charlotte made when making decisions on the line. Unforunately the city made some poor hiring decisions, and those hired did not fix flaws before they changed from flaws to huge problems. That is the job of a supervisor, and that job was not completed.
The lines must be built, they must, for the sake of the city. The locations of the lines are very well thought out IMHO (minus where the south LRT crosses south blvd around scaleybark). They will help move people, and it will help spur growth. The TOD (transit oriented development) is far less exclusive than the condo projects downtown, and there will be attractive affordable options for people moving into charlotte. Who can honestly saw south blvd doesn't need some rebirth. Do you honestly want south blvd to become another independence, with empty big boxes, and traffic that rivals the biggest freeways. I can't wait another second for this to get built.

Let me just say that I respect people like rick, because they have educated themselves before making their opinion, and have done a good job stating their opinion. Maybe some of you folks that are basing your opinion on what the observer says, and what backwards politians say, should take a second and do some research. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY DO SOME RESEARCH.

Anonymous said...

To Duh and :-p,

Duh, there is nothing inherently wrong with your statement. Larger populations will need a more complex system...which will be more expensive than a smaller one.

:-p, perhaps the longer a city waits, costs will be more because the costs of materials, inflation and personnel will rise over time.

My point to both of you: cost overruns have more to do with poor management than a total population.
Poor management includes not projecting cost of material increases and not managing their people.

If you open your eyes to read my posts you'll see that I do not oppose the concept of rail transit; rather the way this particular project has been handled.

If we are going to have rail it needs to be done right. Otherwise, the longer term costs down the road will be greater. If the cost overruns are obscene now, what would they be 20 years from now if we don't get it right today?

Anonymous said...

Mary you are right on.

So often the short-sighted/small minded attitude of 'just build more roads', is expressed. Anyone who has lived in a more populated city knows eventually you can't pave more, and all you do is move the traffic bottlenecks and sit in the same amount of traffic.

Admittedly, 485 is behind, but we simply can't make all the smaller roads an extra two lanes anyway so either you sit on 77 or 485 like now, or you can exit the highway sooner and sit on your side roads longer.

Light rail is the only way most cities have round to reduce the cars on the road, thus reducing traffic.

Anonymous said...

Not even Ron Tober agrees that light rail will reduce traffic in Charlotte.

Please tell the truth.

The best you can say is:

"light rail MAY help contain traffic growth along only the corridors it supports"

It will NOT reduce traffic.

Anonymous said...

Light rail supporters:

Put it on a referendum tommorrow and this project would be voted down 70-30.

It's not because of mismanagement. It's because of it's ENORMOUS costs and it serves too narrow a population base. It will not come close to eliviating auto congestion.

Bigger cities that utilize trains were developed before the U.S. began mass producing cars. Once this was accomplished and people realized they could quickly get ANYWHERE, trains in new-developing cities became obsolete.

To this point yes NYC, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Rome, Milan, etc have a fairly effective, albeit tremendously gov. subsidized, train network.

For recently developed cities like Atlanta, Dallas, Charlotte et al, transit is just a bureaucratic pawn in a wasteful spending game.

I think it's easy to get people to agree as several college-aged posts have said: trains are kinda cool and we REALLY want them.

But I think Ferraris are kinda cool--but they are simply unaffordable.

Anonymous said...

2100? LOL

Mass transit is a solution for a 1950's problem.

That is, people who need to COMMUTE back and forth to work.

In the year 2100 it is really unlikely we will ever need to physically leave our homes and travel to the office.

The monday-friday, 9-5 bankers hours are a throwback to the industrial revolution.

Rapidly advancing tecnhology, Internet, wireless, you name it, make transit LESS AND LESS important.

Unfortunately most of these steering committees and local govt are run by old coots and New York wannabees pining for the good ole days.

Mass transit, and light rail in particular, is a solution to a non-problem.

We won't transit in 10 years let alone 90.

We all know what mass transit is REALLY about.

Fattening the government coffers, hiring more government employees, and taking money and choice (you know 'liberty') from average citizens.

Anonymous said...

There are NO effective mass transit systems.

Even New York, which has the highest ridership, has terrible pollution and terrible road congestion. They also run a $4B per year deficit.

There IS NOT ONE mass transit system in the country that has doen anything to reduce pollution or congestion.

THIS IS a government boondoggle, nothing more than keeping a bunch of govt employees in jobs for another 20 years.

IT should without a doubt be scrapped.

We will be just fine without da GubMent taking care of our every last need.

Anonymous said...

Oh dear, Angry Anon is off his meds again and resorts to name calling and insults to "bolster" his message.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how many angry leftist bumper stickers are on "angry anon's" car.

Anonymous said...

I don't think he's angry. He's just getting his point across to you weenies. He's got the right attitude. Why waste time with the likes of you people. Like he said "You don't count anyway".

Anonymous said...

Light rail was tried in Pittsburgh back in the 1980's - only one line was built and it is an embarrassment to the city. Very, very few people ride it.

Cleveland spent millions building a light-rail line and todaqy very very few people ride it.

Guess who was in charge of the Cleveland rail line? Our boy Ron Tober. If anyone wannts to see the future of Charlotte light rail take a trip to those two towns and see that those lines are failures...that is what Charlotte's line will look like.

it's funny to listen Uptown crowd like Mary wistfully hope that Charlotte will become just like New York, LA, Paris & Rome if we have light rail. Maybe then we'll be considered "world class" - right Mary?

Light rail in Charlotte is a joke...just like the Observer and most of their reporters/columnists.

Anonymous said...

Hey Mr. Weenie,

Are you trying to stifle debate?
Not a very pro free speech attitude.

Looking back through the Transit summaries of Q & A, they expected to have the south corridor open by...right now. I think its right to question the competency of those in charge.

Also, in a section called "why rapdi transit," it makes the claim that "we can be successful because we've done our homework."
Just to use Dallas as an example since its noted as a "study city," the Dallas Business Journal has noted that despite "$1 billion in taxpayer spending aimed at reducing traffic congestion", the number of people using DART transit to get to work dropped from 40,000 per day in 1990 to 36,900 per day in 2000. [5] Supporters of DART defend such expenses by pointing to statistics showing not just increasing ridership of DART light rail but measurable increases in rents and revenues from nearby commercial properties. [6] Critics of DART argue that these increased rents and revenues are simply a natural result of the government taking money from a wide area and channeling it into concentrated locations, namely the train stations. They believe that the argument that DART has created wealth with its projects is a classic example of the "broken window" fallacy. On the other hand, supporters will point out that transit stations allow cities to take a different and more dense approach to development, an approach that is difficult without the stations. These denser developments allow for increased tax revenue to the cities. Critics often point to the fact that DART, like other transit agencies, does not cover its operating expenses with farebox and advertising revenues. DART relies on sales tax revenues to make up the difference; from 2002 to 2004, sales tax collections averaged $354 million per year. In 2004 sales tax revenues exceeded operating expenses by $63 million, allowing the agency to apply the excess towards construction of new capital facilities, including rail extensions.
( from wikipedia)
What the wiki article doesn't mention is that the increased property values ( primarily in the downtown region ) have gradually forced lower income people out of those areas when it became unaffordable.

As you can see, there are ups & downs as this one example points out.

The "why rapid transit" section also uses alot of environmental stats to make to claim of cleaner air due to rail transit. Not true.
Look at the top 10 ( or even 15) most polluted cities and you see they all have a rail system. Those cities may have different industries than we do, causing that pollution, be it can hardly be claimed that rail can reduce pollution when the top 10 most congested cities also have rail systems.

These are some of the points you may not like to hear but they are true.

ween that...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Mary Newsom, you could not be more wrong.

Light rail has NOTHING to do with transit. It is 100% about development and creating high density.

Something the folks in uptown might want to consider. WE DON'T WANT HIGH DENSITY. It leads to higher polution and higher crime.

We also don't want to subsidize the easy travel of criminals from the inner city to our nice and pretty suburbs.

You folks are nuts if you think we are going to let light rail continue. It's dead.

Anonymous said...

"WE DON'T WANT HIGH DENSITY. It leads to higher polution and higher crime"

YOU are the Nut job.
Lets see now. A whole bunch of people living close together and close to work=higher pollution you say.
Not the last time I checked you GOP wacko. If you live close to work, play, shopping, groceries then you end up walking, biking, RAILING with very, VERY limited use of cars. You are also afforded a much easier controlled environment for police to patrol. There are also more people about at all times so any crime is more visible and harder to perpitrate.
I should know. I have lived half my life in the burbs and half in the downtown/uptown areas of cities. I will take the cities any day of the week. Not just for the security of feeling safer and the enjoyment of not having to fight traffic all the time. But the number one reason is to be rid of insane screwballs such as yourself. It's a breath of fresh air not to see any of you. It's like a totally different world uptown. I actually forget I am in the South. Not a bash to all Southerners. Just the ignorant Redneck ones we find on this post. You just bash and bash away at light rail and uptown. Until you flood the uptown you so hate for your deep fried funnel cake, Nascar infused extravaganzas's. Nice traffic jam I saw on the news last night. I77 backed up all the way towards Fort Mill for Race Traffic. Glad I was chilling in my condo instead.
Keep your butt in the sticks where it belongs. You can't handle the urban environment so stay in your "so safe" (24 hr. ADT protected) cul-de-sac.
You crack me up farm boy.

Anonymous said...

To Mr. John S Smyth,

Now that the veins are really popping out of your forehead,
we see you have lost total control of your senses...and the debate.
How old are you and what do you do for a living?

If you feel you need to resort to violence, I'm sure your left leaning pacifist associates will not be pleased. Were you part of the "peace" rally a couple weeks ago?

How about actually debating the merits of my points or anyone else's? Isn't that what this blog is for?

Still, if you really need to let off some steam over this, try jumping from whatever floor you live on...preferably landing on your head to flatten out the point.

Anonymous said...

TO: John S Smyth

Fed Up made very good points, which are yours, or anyones, to disagree with.

Your invitation to a fight is accepted. I tried to find your phone number to call you for an appointment, but you didn't list.

And be sure to bring your gun. I'm too old to indulge in fisticuffs.

Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

The last fight I was in ended up in kisses and a long, pleasurably exhaustive night with my wife.

Anonymous said...

Ditto fed up.

Anonymous said...

Trying to get a little of this back on track. The 80,000 seems to be a reasonable starting point for the Charlotte area whether or not it's Mecklenburg county or not. From what I've seen, most folk are commuting into uptown Charlotte from the surrounding areas. As the population continues to grow, how will we effectively manage to get the folks to and from work with the infrastructure we have?

Bus -- Doesn't really address existing congestion. Social stigma.

Rail -- Limited stops and expensive to build.

Cars -- Will require signficant widening and improving of the roads. Also expensive.

Maybe the answer is that we need all three to some degree.

Personally, if I was in charge of Meck county I'd charge all the folks from Union (and other counties) a commuter's tax. You guys are primarily the ones responsible by commuting from Weddington and Indian Trail to uptown every day. You pay for it.

Any solution is going to require an investment. I'd get over the issue of taxes going up. It's gonna happen. If, for some reason it didn't, everyone would be screaming that the government wasn't doing anything. It's a lose/lose situation if you're an official. One more reason for me to never, ever consider that.

We've got a great city that's relatively safe, very affordable, and has good weather and great neighborhoods. Let's keep investing in it to make it great for the future.

Anonymous said...

Buses and cars are good answers for the simple reason of their ability to handle different situations almost instantaneously. Certainly they need roads, but roads go where people are.

Rail, by its nature, will be radial in design. For those commuting or traveling to places not downtown from somewhere near a rail line, they are, and will continue to be useless. Thus rail will only serve one particular part of the community.

Cars are an independent method of travel, and are here to stay. The fact they cause congestion is not in itself a problem. People choose to live in certain areas knowing full well the commute will be difficult. There is no reason to spend enough money to make their commute as quick as it would be at midnight, as their commute is still quicker than it would be if they lived close in and they walked or rode bicycles. Certainly it would be nice to have more flex time, but already the roads start getting crowded long before 5.

Buses, despite their "stigma" which is imaginary, are the most efficient mass transit method.

If they were operated more on the line of the handicapped CATS system more people would find them useful.

Personally, I live 150 yards from the city limits, and can use neither bus nor rail (now or ever).

If one could call in a pickup (similar to a cab call) have a small bus pick you up at a preset time, take you to a switching station, not just downtown, put you on a line haul to another switching station for another local bus, one could get to anyplace in Mecklenburg, in a reasonable amount of time.

As it is the options are too limited, unless one is handicapped.

This method is how freight companies pick up and deliver freight, people should be easier, but the leaders (those wasting the money) need to think about what it would take to move people.

If you could walk out your front door, get picked up, make a few quick transfers, and get delivered to the door of where you wanted to go, in a predictable amount of time, for a $2.50 bill or so, would it be worth it.

For me, I'd jump at the chance.

Anonymous said...

www.samharris.com
A bit from Sam Harris' new mini book "Letter To A Christian Nation".

Stem cell research: The potential for a cell.
Murder of a living being, a soul ?

Stem Cells:
Stems cells needed for scientific research need to be 3 days old. At this stage they contain 150 cells and are called blastocyst. For the sake of comparison there are 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. Just the brain, not the entire fly. Stems cells that are destroyed in this research do not have brains or even neurons. So scientifically there is no way to justify that they can suffer from their destruction any way at all. It is also important to remember that we as humans deem it "okay" to harvest a persons organs once the "brain" is considered dead. So at this point it is okay to unplug, end life and harvest for parts. If it is acceptable to treat a persons brain who's brain has died as somewhat less than a human being then it should also be acceptable to do research on a 3 day old stem cell.
Perhaps you feel that a stem cell has the potential to one day become a human being and a fly will never become such.
Every cell in your body has the potential for becoming a human being.Take into consideration that with the advances in science it is now possible to clone a human from ONE cell of his or her body. So in essence, every time you scratch your nose or ear you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings. This is fact, not a belief. The argument for a cell's potential gets you absolutely nowhere.
If you believe that life starts at the moment of conception then you also believe that there are souls in these 3 day old stem cells. You must also believe then that a little girl with burns over 75% of her body has a soul that is not as worthy as the 3 day old, 100 cell stem cell sitting in a Petri dish at a lab. Her soul could likely have much less pain if development and research in stem cell science were allowed to advance. The great pain she suffers is due to a lack of understanding of science and a great strangle hold of religious dogma.

Anonymous said...

I predict that the light rail sales tax will be repealed by over 60% of the population in November 2007.

Anonymous said...

I think this section of Tara Servatious' article sums up why people are upset with the light rail situation.

"Parsons Transportation Group, the same company that designed our rail line, tried this scam most recently in Southern Nevada, but this time, it didn't go so well.

In December, Parsons attempted to convince taxpayers that a 33-mile line that would connect Henderson and North Las Vegas would cost a mere $713 million, or $22 million a mile. That didn't jibe with what citizens were reading on the Web, and they questioned the costs. Rather than act as a mindless cheerleader for rail, like the media in most cities, the Las Vegas Review-Journal took a good look at the estimate, calling it "absurdly low" when compared to actual costs in other cities -- which run as high as $80 million a mile.

Parsons quickly revised its projections upward by $400 million in response and was eventually forced to admit that with inflation factored in -- these consultants often "forget" to factor in inflation -- the real cost would be between $2 billion and $3 billion. (Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade & Douglas, an unrelated company that did the estimates for our mass transit project, conveniently "forgot" to figure in inflation, too.)

Within a month, the Vegas light rail plan was dead.

Charlotte wasn't so lucky. We're one of the cities that deliberately closed its eyes and bought the scam. In the late 1990s, consultant Parsons Brinckerhoff claimed that we too could have rail for a mere $29 million a mile, and that the South Boulevard rail line would come in around $230 million. Some city council members who doubted those numbers raised $5,000 and brought in their own consultant, Wendell Cox.

Using costs of other lines across the country for comparison, Cox predicted our rail line would cost over $400 million and have far lower ridership and much higher subsidization costs than predicted. The powers that be treated Cox like a mental defective and laughed him out of city hall. Cox and those who hired him were small-minded and lacked vision. As it turns out, Cox was almost dead on. It now looks like his estimates were actually a little low.

In 2003, Creative Loafing reported that the last time Parsons Transportation and Parsons Brinckerhoff worked on a large-scale project together, they were responsible for an 80-foot sinkhole along Hollywood Boulevard, thousands of lawsuits totaling over $1 billion, and a trail of fraud and corruption so long that even the FBI couldn't untangle it. Parsons Brinckerhoff, the firm that told voters in 1998 that our mass transit plan would cost about a billion dollars -- it is now forecast to cost over $6 billion and counting -- is the same firm that conspired with Massachusetts officials and the Federal Highway Administration to hide the true $14 billion cost of Boston's Big Dig from the public, bond investors and Wall Street."

Anonymous said...

No fair quoting real journalists.

Now go shine your shoes and adjust your attitude.

Put on your blinders and shake your pom-poms for this giant suck-hole.

Anonymous said...

No where in the Country is stem-cell research illegal. Stop spreading lies and half truths. Private industry does it everyday as well as Universities. Please research before blabbing off lies.

Anonymous said...

to add to triadcitizen1...

...and once all the shiney cars are strung together, people will no longer have to make nasty little decisions about when and where they want to travel. They'll have a nice little government train schedule to tell them when and where they can go. They won't have to decide where to live because government will have decided for them by placing all new development around the shiney new train tracks. They won't have to decide how to spend their own money because government will have taken it to pay for train operations since fares only cover a small fraction of the cost.

Sounds like a great plan to me.

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black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -

Anonymous said...

black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -

Anonymous said...

her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
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college fuckfest -
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dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
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his first facial -
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huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
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naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
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simpson twins -
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boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
bang boat -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
black cocks white sluts -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
boobs exam scam -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -