Tuesday, December 19, 2006

Ignoring pedestrians? Drivers beware!

Drivers who ignore pedestrians, beware! At least, beware if you’re in Chicago.

My buddy Tom Low – architect and planner with Duany Plater-Zyberk’s Charlotte office and founding father of the Civic By Design forum – shares this link to a ChiTrib article about that city considering plainclothes “stings” to catch drivers who endanger people on foot.

The article says on average more than one pedestrian is killed in a traffic accident each week in Chicago – one reason the city takes the problem seriously.

Tom wonders: What are some other things and places that makes it hard for pedestrians here in Charlotte? (And just today, a student at Providence High School was hit by a motorist. Story here.)

He writes, “For example, excessively wide street-corner-turning radii allow for motorists to move faster around corners, while potentially doubling the crossing distance from curb to curb for pedestrians, compared to more traditional tight urban street corners.

“The combination of fast cars and longer crossing distances discourages pedestrians from at least getting an even chance to use the public realm. This will become more of an issue as suburban places like SouthPark rebuild the private property with more urban uses and density, while the public streetscape was originally designed as higher speed, suburban arterials. My office at Queens and Providence in the Myers Park commercial neighborhood suffers from this problem too.”

Charlotte DOT is a lot more sensitive on this than it used to be, but much of the city was built in the bad old insensitive ways.

My beef, as a pedestrian? I have dozens. Here's a big one: We need more pedestrian crossing lights, and longer crossing times for walkers. For example, in the SouthPark and Morrocroft areas (and lots of others, too) many of the lights don’t give a pedestrian crossing OK at all unless you press the button. Even then you get maybe 5 seconds, max, before that “Don’t Walk” hand starts flashing.

This absurdity is subtly training me to ignore the blinking hand – NOT behavior traffic specialists want to encourage, I presume.

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

If they city bothers to put a pedestrian signal up at an intersection, why should we have to press a button???

Just let the signal work with the traffic signals like they're intended. There's no harm in having a walk sign when no one is there...but if you miss pressing that button by 1 second you get a big red hand. Who's bright idea was that?

-An annoyed pedestrian

jimmy mac said...

I agree we need to be more pedestrian friendly in Charlotte.
My experience in driving "uptown" have been one of complete fustration dodging predestrians crossing in the middle of the street.
Not only do we need to educate the planners on better design of intersections,but the public also in using them.

Anonymous said...

Some places in Europe (please don't disregard this idea out of hand because it comes from Europe) have adopted an interesting approach that "unsafe is safe." That is, they remove traffic signs, signals, and lane lines. The thought is that many folks drive in a brain-dead mode when they have traffic signs telling them everything they must do. Conversely, without constant direction, drivers must pay closer attention to their surroundings. Because they feel as if the driving environment is unsafe, they drive especially carefully. Some studies of this (please someone find the link, I can't) have shown that it slows most drivers down a good bit and it really slows down the very fastest drivers. Interesting concept. Don't know that I'm ready to adopt it, but it gives some insight into what makes roads unsafe (for pedestrians and drivers).

Anonymous said...

Oh My God !!!!
Charlotte is about as clueless as it gets with pedestrians. I walk to the Harris Teeter on 6th uptown all the time. It's so bad they have installed flashing strobe lights that go off when a pedestrian enters the cross walk. They are so bright and flash so much you can see them in broad daylight. But 9 out of 10 times I am almost wiped out by a car. Some see you and just swerve to the next lane not even slowing down one bit and speed on by.
AMAZING.
Total Losers.

Dan said...

While Charlotte is making important strides, there is much work still to be done to make Charlotte a more walkable community. I find it funny that people drive to Dilworth and Myers Park to run and walk because they are some of Charlotte's most walkable neighborhoods. With its wide planting strips, tree-lined streets and generous sidewalks, these areas are active people places. Unfortunately Charlotte's weak standards for new subdivisions (4' planting strips and 4' sidewalks) are not replicating the great neighborhood street characteristics that we see in our older neighborhoods. The development standards need to change if Charlotte is going to get serious about creating more walkable neighborhoods.

Meg said...

Charlotte absolutely needs to make walking, especially uptown, easier for pedestrians. I walk uptown and I've almost been hit numerous times. Often, even when the pedestrians have the right of way, the driver doesn't even pause before making a right turn on red. Obviously, something needs to change.

And I have to say, I'm tired of sprinting to get across the street without getting plowed into by oncoming traffic.

Anonymous said...

Have you ever tried to cross the street in the marked pedestrian cross walk with the signs citing pedestrians have right of way on 7th Street between Reid's & Dixies ? Try it anytime, day, night, weekday or weekend. If there's traffic coming toward you are taking your life in your hands. If you're lucky one direction of traffic (the one you're mostly likely standing in front of) will stop for you, but certainly the opposite direction will blow past in front of you. It is especially a disgrace when the Central Division Office is less than a block away and the bicycle patrol officers are often gathered in the evening at the convenience store near 9th & Tryon. How difficult would it be to ask for them to hang out in front of Reid's instead and write some tickets once a month ?

Anonymous said...

I live in Dilworth and walk or jog daily along East Blvd. Crossing the Scott and Kenilworth intersections is lethal People never stop for you even on the signal. Also, the East and Dilworth Rd West cross time is ridiculous! Pedestrians should not have to run across the intersection when it's time to cross.

Uncle Dennis said...

Pedestrians have the right of way! That is a law that is not enforced. All the previous bloggers are citing specific areas where they find crossing a challenge, they are all over the city!

The developments in South Charlotte are designed solely for the automobile. Can you imaging being a pedestrian in Ballentyne? Raintree has no sidewalks! Audry Kell?

We should not be surprised when people who live there are driving in the urban core, and do not understand why people are standing around on street corners.

I am totally in favor of having police cite the lawbreakers.

UD

Anonymous said...

Some article on the girl who was hit at Providence HS. Is there a longer version that actually says how it happened?

rebecca said...

I live near Cotswold shopping Center and if I need to pick up just a few small things, like a prescription or something easliy carried, I always walk there. My nieghbors used to constantly stop and say "do you need a ride?" when they would see me -- and drive off looking very puzzled and confused when I declined. I think it is funny they think nothing of jogging in circles around the neighborhood for exercise, but walking to do errands is weird. I think it is this mentality, that noone wants or needs to walk, that allows planners to disregard walkability when planning roads and nieghborhoods.

Anonymous said...

I read the Massachusetts has passed a law that all new development and roadbuilding must take into consideration the needs of pedestrians and bicyclists.

Would that more states had such a law!

David McKnight said...

Good for Massachusetts! That just goes to show you that people from Boston are not just "out to lunch." Besides, even Denny Crane of "Boston Legal" needs to dash (safely) down the street a block or two to fetch up some of those fine cigars that he and his junior partner like to smoke when their law cases are concluded.

Maybe the folks in the Bay State would like Plymouth Rock to be as pedestrian-friendly as Blowing Rock. At least the Pilgrims didn't have any trouble finding plenty of shore-side parking.

Perhaps that Northeastern University political science professor, Michael Dukakis, could give a lecture at Queens or UNC-Charlotte on the importance of "urban hiking" to the balance and vitality of city centers and suburban shopping districts.

If Gov. Mitt Romney wins the Republican presidential nomination in 2008 and runs against a good shoe-leather Democrat like John Edwards or Mike Easley, maybe folks in the other 48 states in the Union besides North Carolina and Massachusetts will start talking up "pedestrian shopping enhancement" policies.

Anonymous said...

Last time I tried to cross from Harris Teeter at Morrocroft to South Park, I was told to go to the middle of the block and run like hell to the median and then repeat the run to the opposite sidewalk. Literally. It is the ONLY way to get across without being mowed down by turning cars with drivers on phones, drinking coffee, while yelling at kids.

Mary Newsom said...

Mary here -- I've updated the link to today's lengthier story about the Providence student being hit.

Dontcha just love the city's concern that N.C. 51 traffic not be disrupted? Even if kids are hospitalized?

Carsarepeopletoo said...

Why is it that "we" all know the current style of planning does not work yet it is perpetuated? Mallard Creek Church is quickly becoming a mini-version of Harris Blvd (like Harris is anything like a "boulevard"). Hell, our houses look like receptacles for our cars with the massive garage doors. Our roads and neighborhoods are auto-centric. Everything else is unimportant. Maybe we can have planners mandate some sort of "inclusionary treadmill" ordinance to make sure we inhabitants can have a safe place to walk!!!

Uncle Dennis said...

Maybe this blog should be more centered on the myth that we all need cars.

Marketing by the car companies as well as encouragement by the government and big oil has given us a constant barrage as to why we should not only have one car per adult, but those cars should be replaced every 3 years at least.

TV is full of both new and used car ads, that creates a lot of revenue for the broadcasting industry. Domestic car companies have nearly 200,000 thousand employees, all making good money. Supporting industries, ie tires, create another huge industry.

Truth is we are too intertwined with the auto industry to make a drastic change financally.

Real Estate developers picked up that idea, and created communities where it didn't make sense, because with your car you are only minutes away from everything. Because there is nothing there other than houses and garages, there is no reason for sidewalks, we are being bred to not walk.

Walking is something you drive to a gym to do on a treadmill where you can watch TV and more car commercials while you walk.

It is big, getting bigger, and feeds on itself.

I am encouraged that in some cities such as Seattle, there are new residential developments going up
with no parking, designed for carless people.

That said, I do think the car has a place for use some time, but as a rental, not a part of one's anatomy.

UD

Anonymous said...

There are lots of things the Charlotte area lacks. Pedestrian bridges, better intersections, even in Stallings on Monroe Rd. we have issues. A bus system that is out to lunch moving everyone in one direction, uptown, and it does a poor job of extending beyond the county line. It also keeps its primary focus on those who can't afford cars. Admirable, but in doing so it promotes those of us with jobs to drive to work due to lack of choices with regards to routes to times.

All this being said there is one underlying cause for much of our commute problems. Jobs are now transient. I have worked for 3 different companies in my tech career while here in Charlotte the last 14 years. Two were by the Coliseum on Tyvola, and one is in uptown. Given companies' preference to either use contractors, or not keep workers for the long haul, you can no longer "live where you work." So you are going to need cars, unless you want to uproot your family every few years, or more.

Anonymous said...

Uncle Dennis,
Well said Uncle !!
I moved to uptown 4 years ago and it's the best damn thing I've done for myself. I get so much exercise from biking and walking it's unbelievable.
I rarely use my auto anymore. It's a hybrid so I don't feel as bad as I used to when I occasionally have to take a trip in it. But with Home Depot, Lowes and Target moving within 2 miles from me I will need the car even less. Bring on the retail !!! I'll just seel the damn car then !

Anonymous said...

Opps ! ......"sell "

.....must get more coffee.

rebecca said...

Uncle Dennis I am actually living what you preach. A year and a half ago my Ford Explorer - which had less than 70,000 miles -- exploded and burned to an unrecognizable pile of molten steel. After researching cars and prices, I realized that since I ride the bus to work and only need to the car for Saturday HT runs, each trip to the store would be about 100.00 factoring in the downpayment, taxes, insurance and carpayments. So we decided to be a "one-car family" and it has worked out great.

Anonymous said...

Rebecca - that is great. My family and I are doing the same thing. I am fortunate that I live in very walkable neighborhood (Dilworth) where you can actually walk to parks, the grocery store and to get a bagel/coffee. We gave up the second car, I take #19 bus to/from work and it has been great. I believe the challenge is that only about 60% of Charlotte residents live within 1/4 mile of a bus route and an even smaller percent live in neighborhoods where you would describe them as "walkable". We need to design/require better neighborhoods to built if we are going to be able to give more people the option of becoming a one-car family.

Anonymous said...

Not enough sidewalks, and those that are there are in such poor condition that using them is a good way to court a broken ankle.

Anonymous said...

"Dontcha just love the city's concern that N.C. 51 traffic not be disrupted? Even if kids are hospitalized? "

If the government would just focus on roads and enlarge 485, then perhaps 51 would not be such a major traffic artery.

But unfortunately the silly light rail disaster is sucking up all of the transportation dollars.

Once the city and state loses this obsession with trains, perhaps we can start really trying to solve some of our real problems today, not 50 years in the future.

Anonymous said...

Last poster is a total moron. We need to build the rail to get Fed. dollars for other projects;
such as 485.
It's part of the total deal you FOOL !

Anonymous said...

Last poster is a moron. The light rail has nothing to do with a joint deal for 485. They do not refuse to build highways if you dont build trains.

But the simple fact is that about $100 million in state transportation dollars for roads have been diverted to light rail. So it is clear that Mecklenburg roads would have been much better if we had never started this train disaster.

Anonymous said...

Last poster is a moron. The light rail has nothing to do with a joint deal for 485. They do not refuse to build highways if you dont build trains.

But the simple fact is that about $100 million in state transportation dollars for roads have been diverted to light rail. So it is clear that Mecklenburg roads would have been much better if we had never started this train disaster.

Anonymous said...

Seems like each day crossing Stonewall and College streets to get to work is taking a chance - the CATS buses are the worst offenders, literally will run you out of the pedestrian walkway making a turn. Cars honk at the few drivers who will stop on red before turning right so as not to hit the pedestrians. I think part of the problem is there's no left turn signal for those turning onto College from eastbound Stonewall, so they just dart in front of oncoming traffic and forget a person might be walking across the street.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

When I drive my SUV while talking on my cell phone, eating trans-fat laden food and smoking a cigar, I find it very annoying when I have to slow down for pinheads walking in my path.

Until pedestrians pay a shoe tax, have an annual shoe inspection, and then have all their shoe-related fees wasted on a teapot museum in Sparta, they have no business being in the road.

Ultimately, Hummer -vs- pedestrian...

I win.

Anonymous said...

Passed a CATS bus on the way to work today.

MAYBE 3 people on it.

What a waste.

I cannot wait until the new urbanist dream of light rail is actually built, so we can all finally see that it is just a stupid train that nobody will use it either.

Anonymous said...

I see that Angry Anon is off his meds again. Vulgarity and name-calling (jerkoff and b*tch) are no substitutes for intelligent discourse. Grow up.

Anonymous said...

Cities of equivalent size and density to Charlotte (Las Vegas, Jacksonville Florida, etc) have each investigated light rail and determined that it does not make sense. Charlotte made a huge mistake by swallowing the bait.

Hopefully we get another chance to vote and repeal the tax that is funding this disaster.

Let's focus on bus rapid transit, bike paths, side walks and other things that make sense.

Light rail simply cannot be justified at $50 million per mile AND subsidizing riders at $17 per day for each person who gets on it.

Uncle Dennis said...

It is pretty easy to think that we do not want to invest in something that will be essential 30 - 50 years from now. What's in it for me?

Yet the truth of the matter is that as a society we must invest for the greater good of all of the society, not just ourselves.

I have no children, yet I support school bond issues every time they are offered. I have never been attacked or had something stolen from me, yet I encourage the police to increase their force, and have more visability.

I do not have a car, yet I still support road improvements. I have no major illnesses and take no prescriptions, yet I think that medicare is a wonderful support for those who do, and have been paying into it for years.

I am not homeless, yet I support the homeless shelters both financially and with personal efforts.

These and other things do not make up my life, but do make up my society, and it is a society I choose to live in.

There is no question that oil will run out at some point. The replacement for the 50 million internal combusion engines will be manufactured in Asia as the economic balance of power shifts unmistakenly to China.

This will be beyond my lifetime, but is coming, and if plans are not put in place now it will not be affordable in the future.

Great cities are the ones that look and plan for the futue.

UD

Anonymous said...

Uncle Dennis nails it correct everytime.

Hummer Wins guy, sure you drive a Hummer. More like a Ford Festiva. Spend less time wacking off on internet porn and get with the program.

Maybe 3 people on the bus,
Sure, sure, what at 10am when everyone is at work ?
I see buses packed to the brim every single workday. Unloading people at Trade/Tryon in the a.m. and picking up in the p.m.
PACKED FULL !

Don't go on saying packed with "thugs".
No Buddy, white collar biz types commuting from S. Charlotte and Lake Norman.

These people will complain until the day they die. Don't waste you breath on them Uncle.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Uncle Dennis,

You wrote the following:
"It is pretty easy to think that we do not want to invest in something that will be essential 30 - 50 years from now."

Then later you made reference to running out of oil. While I agree that Peak Oil is comming (likely by 2008 to 2012) I don't think you fully understand the implications or the solutions, if there even are solutions to Peak Oil.

Oil is so fundamental to our economy that it likely will not be possible to maintain densely populated cities 30 to 50 years from now. The solution is not more density which is not sustainable. The solution is the exact opposite. We need to disperse and move back to the country.

Fighting vainly to maintain an industrialized economy, without oil, is impossible.

Just my opinion. Light rail is a waste of time. We are not going o survive the oil crisis by building trains at $50 million per mile.

In Europe, for the most part (with a few exceptions) trains are used between cities and bus systems are used within a city.

Anonymous said...

If oil is running out in 30 to 50 years, the last place you want to be is near a crowded city with a lot of angry unemployed people who are desperate for jobs, energy and food.

I'd rather be on a 10 to 20 acre organic farm with solar panels and a wind turbine on the roof. Maybe an electric car in the garage.

The 1970s were ugly. Don't get caught in the big city when people are desperate.

Anonymous said...

To the anon trying to reason their spin to Uncle Dennis,
You think buses are better in the city than "electric" trains ? With Peak Oil coming within half a decade what buses are you talking about ?
Electric ones I hope.
Otherwise your statement makes zero sence.

Anonymous said...

If Peak Oil is coming then living in the middle of the city where I can walk to everything is exactly where I want to be.
Living on a cow field in the middle of nowhere with an organic farm is cool I will agree. But how on Earth will you pay your mortgage assuming you have one ?
What job will you work 100's of miles from any city ?
You still have property taxes, health insurance, college tuition, retirement.
It just doesn't work unless you are in a finacial position to purchase your farm cash and still have plenty of money left to pay for all the other needs.
This describes very few people.

Anonymous said...

>>It is pretty easy to think that we do not want to invest in something that will be essential 30 - 50 years from now.>>

Are you serious???

30-50 years from now we will not need to commute to work anymore.

Light rail is a throwback to the 1950's, not a look ahead to the 2050's.

Commuting itself is an outdated concept. Don't be such a guppy. This whole light rail thing was pushed by real estate speculators who bought tons of cheap land on South Blvd, get govco to pump up values by spending $500M on new stuff, then they can sell.

You could subsidize the Saharah Desert and call that 'revitalization' too.

This whole thing is yet another boondoggle to make a select few richer of the backs of the taxpayers.

Get a clue.

Anonymous said...

You think buses are better in the city than "electric" trains ? With Peak Oil coming within half a decade what buses are you talking about ?

If we are going to try to maintain cities, plug-in hybrid cars and buses (google "PHEV") make far more sense than electric light rail. Light rail is simply too expensive for negligible effectiveness for actually moving people around. Light rail simply cannot be justified at the current expense. There are far more affordable and flexible solutions. Bus rapid transit, plug-in hybrid vehicles, tele-commuting.

Charlotte is never going to get as large as the planners project. Peak Oil is going to bring economic growth to a screeching halt. In fact, we will likely start a depression worse than the 1930s.

Without oil, it is open to debate as to our way of life even being possible. Forget cars. I am talking about enough food on the planet for 6 billion people. We need massive amounts of oil just to produce fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides.

oilbull said...

If Peak Oil is coming then living in the middle of the city where I can walk to everything is exactly where I want to be.

Not really. If Peak Oil happens there likely won't be nearly the number of jobs for frivilous employment that we current have. Restaurants, nail salons, etc. Think of all of the silly jobs that are really non-essential to life. Those luxuries will be the first to fail. The bulk of urban employment could be classified as such.

We will need more farm hands to simply produce food. Picture 2050 as being a cross between the year 1850 with the remnants of the technology age and the internet still working at a marginal level.

Living on a cow field in the middle of nowhere with an organic farm is cool I will agree. But how on Earth will you pay your mortgage assuming you have one ?
What job will you work 100's of miles from any city ?
You still have property taxes, health insurance, college tuition, retirement.


I doubt we will have many of those things. Your job is certainly at risk in an economic depression. Your house and many others will be forclosed on. The banks will fail from the bad loans. Your job will be farm labor to produce enough food to survive. You can forget about college tuition, health insurance and retirement.

It just doesn't work unless you are in a finacial position to purchase your farm cash

Those people with the resources, and smarts to plan ahead, will be the new leaders and wealthy. Prior to the industrialized age the wealthy class were the landowners. It will be so again as we run out of oil.

and still have plenty of money left to pay for all the other needs.

None of those items are needs. They are luxuries which were made possible by the oil age.

This describes very few people.

Exactly. The oil age created massive wealth for a large portion of western civilization. The decline from oil will result is massive wealth loss. Those that understand the changes which are coming will be the new wealthy class. Own land and resources and commodities which will be in short supply.

oilbull said...

Uncle Denis wrote:
It is pretty easy to think that we do not want to invest in something that will be essential 30 - 50 years from now.

anonymous responded:

Are you serious???
30-50 years from now we will not need to commute to work anymore.


I tend to agree. Commuting to work is becomming less relevant. Ron Tober said that downtown needs double the number of jobs to make light rail feasible. And Bank of America is not putting the jobs in downtown. They are opening up an office complex in Ballantyne to allow South Charlotte employees avoid the drive downtown. That is far more effective than building an $8 billion light rail boondoggle.

Many jobs are done via PC, email, telephone. Many meetings can be replaced via video PC conferences or other medium. Actually travelling 30-45 minutes to work will become less likely every year.

Uncle Dennis said...

Lets see......the 1/2 cent sales tax means that if you purchase $20,000 worth of stuff in a given year, the tax extracted from that for transit will be $100. Assuming that you get a bus pass to use transit, and lets say that pass is $50 per month, that is another $600 annually, so, as I see it, that will be about $700 annually for reliable, predictable, non polluting, non stressful travel time to the downtown area.

We could compare that with a car. Lets say you purchase a car for $25000 at 6% for 5 years. Your payments will be about $485 per month and lets assume at the end of that 5 years the car is worth $5000, so we give you a credit of $100 per month for retained value. Your car payment is then $385 per month. Lets say you are a good driver, and your insurance costs are $50 per month. Your car is a hybred, so you get 40 miles per gallon, drive 16000 miles per year, and gas averages $2.25 per gallon, your gas costs are $75 dollars per month. Now to park your car, lets say you choose a rapidly disappearing surface parking lot only 3/4 of a mile from your office for $5 per day, that is another $100 per month. (Sorry about those few rainy days, or the many 95 plus degree days)

We won't bother to figure in any maintaince costs, or tire replacement costs, or car washes, or oil changes, nor will we look at the lost time costs of driving and walking from the lot. We also will not look at how much you pay in taxes to support the road system.

Looking just at out of pocket annual expenses we find light rail costing you $700 per year while a car will cost you $1985 per year.

Now there is no question that a car provides much more freedom that really cannot be matched by light rail. but if you apply your personal expenses in place of the conservative ones I used above, you will find the differences even greater.

This is not smoke and mirrors, do the math for yourself.

UD

oilbull said...

Uncle Dennis,
The cost to the rider is fabulous. But the real cost to fund the operating deficits is born by the taxpayers. The estimated cost recovery (paid ticket) of the bus system is about 30% of the real cost of running the bus system. The rest is paid by the taxpayers.

The cost recovery (paid ticket) of light rail is estimated to be about 5% to 10%. It has been estimated that taxpayers will pay $15 to $17 for every rider who steps onto a light rail EVERY time that person rides it.

It is a fabulous deal for the people who ride it. It is a lousy deal for everyone else in Mecklenburg County who is nowhere near a train.

If we were actually insane enough to build all 5 light rail corridors, it could very well bankrupt the city.

Luckily the federal government has minimum ridership standards before they will contribute federal funding. Luckily for Charlotte, none of the other proposed corridors qualify for federal or state funding. Even South Blvd would not qualify if they applied today. They applied 1 week before the standards changed.

Light rail does not make any reasonable financial sense. Especially when compared to a flexible bus system or bus rapid transit. Even if you argue that taxpayers need to subsidize mass transit, bus systems crush light rail in terms of effectiveness, flexibility and cost.

Uncle Dennis said...

Oilbull, lets talk about the highway trust funds, and the pork barrels established to complete a highway at 4 lanes, only to almost immediately begin reconstruction to 6 lanes.

I was trying to show out of pocket cost comparisons for transit, whether it is rail or bus, and the auto.

By the way, Happy New Year.

UD

oilbull said...

Uncle Dennis,
Happy New Year to you also.

My point on highways vs light rail is that it is not an either or decision. Even by your own statement, highways/roads are a requirement for our society. They are going to be built no matter what. They serve 100% of the population in some form or another. Whether you drive on them or the products you use are transported on them, you receive a benefit from highways/roads. Our distribution networks will simply fail without them. Many different flexible transportations systems can use them. 18 Wheel trucks, local delivery trucks, personal vehicles, mass-transit bus systems, etc.

Light Rail systems are a luxury. They provide an optional service, also heavily subsidized by taxpayers (like roads). The key problem with light rail is the lack of flexibility and the VERY narrow segment of the population that can use them. Yet 100% of the population (federal, state, local) is expected to pay for them.

Currently over 50% of the capital budget for CATS is going to South Blvd light rail, yet less than 2% of the eventual riders of CATS will be using that train. And the taxpayer subsidy will be $15 to $17 PER DAY of every rider who steps onto a train.

Nobody in Mathews is gaining any benefit from light rail, yet they are all paying the 1/2 cent sales tax. In fact, the bulk of the bus service is concentrated in the City of Charlotte, yet the entire Mecklenburg County pays the sales tax.

The rational financial decision would be to stop after South Blvd, observe that system for several years to see if it makes sense. In the mean time, focus on designing a first class bus system for the rest of the county.

Uncle Dennis said...

Mary, I am afraid that we have strayed from your topic of drivers vs pedestrians to rain vs non rail!

It is truly a snakes nest of finances when you try to determine where money is actually coming from, and exactly what ongoing costs are.

I would be interested to see how much land is required for 1 mile of 6 lane freeway, factoring in extra land for interchanges every 1.5 miles, vs 1 mile of light rail including stops every 1.5 miles. Also the material costs for that land.

My sense is that in an all roadway scenario, builders and developers continue to entice us with the lure of a "bonus room" and easy access to freeways, therefore ignoring and abandoning mature neighborhoods, which leads to downward spirialing home prices, leaving those there trapped.

It is interesting that rails lure is to be 1/2 mile from a station, where clearly no one wants to be 1/2 mile from an interchange.

But back to my point about the finances for any public transportation venue. Where the money comes from is extremely hard to track, and who it benefits is going to be limited. The costs have to be borne though, and it takes strong leadership to make it happen.

As a rider, I would prefer to travel on rail as there are seldom any reasons for congestion.

The growth of this city will be contingent on development of a strong rail system, both light and commuter. I believe the 5 lines will be built and extended; I believe the streetcar line will be built and extended; I believe commuter rail will be build and extended, perhaps west towards Greenville, south towards Columbia, and east towards Rockingham in addition to extending north to Winston.

OK Mary, lets talk baseball!!!!


UD

Anonymous said...

Uncle Dennis,

I believe that growth is actually something we should be minimizing as we approach Peak Oil. The coming energy crisis will likely be so devastating to our economy that our tax base will not be able to support this type of high budget deficit light rail plan.
Growth clearly does not pay for itself. The county of Mecklenburg and this region is being changed from the region that we love into an urban wasteland.

Clearly families with children prefer suburb areas with backyards, low crime and good schools.

The urban lifestyle appears to be most desirable for childless couples, gay couples, retirees or singles. The Portland example provides clear evidence that the schools around their light rail system are empty. They are rapidly closing schools there.

You wrote:
Where the money comes from is extremely hard to track, and who it benefits is going to be limited. The costs have to be borne though, and it takes strong leadership to make it happen.

Ask yourself this question. Why? Why does light rail have to be built? We choose the most inflexible and high cost system? It makes far more sense to build a bus system or even BRT to meet mass transit goals. Far cheaper, far more effective at moving people and much faster to get going. And they can use the same roads that need to be built anyways to maintain our distribution networks and move traffic.

Light rail supporters need to move beyond the concept of "oooh.... pretty trains" and really look and the cost benefit ratio before we push Char/Meck into bankruptcy.

If there is another vote on the light rail sales tax, do you think it would be repealed now?

Anonymous said...

Why on earth do we want to pave over everything and make everyone live in big huge cities? I lived in Chicago for years and it was a nightmare. In the summer there is a measurable heat bloom in major cities because they lack enough green area to handle direct sunlight. All of the pavement and concrete just absorb sinlight and create a residual heat.

Just outside the city in the suburbs it is measurably cooler because sunlight is more naturally distributd with backyards and more trees.

This rush to force everyone into massive cities is not healthy.

oilbull said...

Uncle Dennis,
This is not a debate of highways/roads versus light rail. It is not a decision over which will be built.

The roads/highways will be built, end of story. Society will not function without them.

The barrier that light rail must overcome is how they make sense when compared to a bus system or bus rapid transit. In every single measurable way (ridership, cost, flexibility, etc) a bus system or BRT defeats light rail every single step of the way.

So when debating this topic, forget about roads/highways. Those are too crucial to our system. It is not an option to simply dump the road budget. Your arguments in support of the trains must explain why they are better than a simple bus system.

Anonymous said...

Back to Pedestrians.
Simple, if you dumbasses hit me while walking I will sue your asses until you or your insurance company are broke. If you happen to kill me my wife will take care of your dumbass for me.

Anonymous said...

Back to Pedestrians.
Simple, if you dumbasses hit me while walking I will sue your asses until you or your insurance company are broke. If you happen to kill me my wife will take care of your dumbass for me.>>

I guess we have to get both of you then.

That's OK. My Hummer H2 is REALLY wide.

Try not to get any tater-tot grease on my chrome bumper, I just had it washed.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

www.stopthetrain.com

save our city...

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

According to the polling data, the train is not a partisan issue. It is about equal for Democrats and Republicans both in support and disapproval. It was split about exactly own the middle for both parties.

Rick said...

I see in our trusty Observer that the street car won't start running for another 12-16 years or so. I wonder if the people on Beatties Ford or Central Avenue still support the train for everyone else since they got bumped to the back of the line.

I wonder if they realize they've been used by the politicians, both Republican and Democrat, to get their support for the train but then they actually won't get the train. Not anytime soon, anyway.

I wonder if they'd be interested in signing the petition to stopthetrain.

Just a thought...

Oh, and it looks like our eloquent name callers are at it again. Please keep them coming, it gives such a good example of the quality person who supports the train.

Ron Tober, are you listening?

Anonymous said...

Rick, you are a putz.

oilbull said...

prior anonymous, you are a coward. Rick is one of the most interesting contributors. His POV is worth reading.

Anonymous said...

Oilbull,
You are the coward and the ignorant. In your response to Uncle Dennis you said,
"Your arguments in support of the trains must explain why they are better than a simple bus system."
The train is better because it is environmentally cleaner. It is able to move mass amounts of people in a clean manner which as we all know is fastly becoming a priority in todays world.
Seems to me that if you can't figure this out then you are the ignorant one.

Anonymous said...

To the last anon;

I'm no environmental scientist, but I'll comfortably speculate that the effect that bus emissions have vs. trains is so marginal as to be negligible. In considering overall Charlotte air quality, it's probably less than a rounding error.

If the overarching concern were to minimize emissions as much as possible, then we should just take the train money and use it to subsidize telecommuting.

The problem with buses is that most of the urbies just can't lower themselves to ride them. Apparently their love of diversity and multicultural authenticity has its limits. (And yes, I've regularly taken the bus for over 8 years now).

Anonymous said...

Cato Brotha,
I take the bus on occasion if a situation arises that warrants it. Otherwise I walk, bike, scooter or hybid my way around town. Many options out there today that have little impact on the soil beneath out feet or the air we breathe. In the following 5-10 years we will have many more options with street cars and light rail.
Problem with light rail is that it isn't going all the way to Rock Hill. It also needs to swing onto I485 and head right to Stonecrest. Then the rail would be packed with commuters. Make it simple and they will ride it. But as much as I support the rail I see that they have botched up the planning of it as is usual in this town. They are already spending a fortune and not making it atractive to ride. Spend some more and make it so people actually use it.

The morning and afternoon comuter buses are packed to the brim with your white collar "white" bread biz suits coming in from Lake Norman. I will say that the South part of Charlotte doesn't seem to get it at all. They all sit stuck in traffic while the Lake Norman blokes cruise on by in the HOV lane via bus.
What gives here people ? Are the Normanites more "with it" ?
As far as the Urbies not lowering themselves to ride the bus; who knows ? Probably because we can walk, bike, scooter, hybrid to our local hang outs. We don't need to go very far after all. Everything I ever need is within 2 miles. With Home Depot, Lowes, Target and retail only a year away in the uptown we will travel even less. The farthest I ever go is to South Park Mall and that's only 5 miles.
But back to "pedestrians".............................
It's simple, if they are in the cross walk they have the right of way. It's N.C. law period. So back off the gas, keep your eyes peeled and look out for that pedestrian. There will be more and more of us in the coming years.

Anonymous said...

Valid point. I have to admit that my swipe at people not wanting to "lower" themselves wasn't fair. But even transportation planners admit that buses have a stigma that trains don't - for whatever reason.

Anonymous said...

Cato,
That's weird, huh ? They do have a stigma, what gives ?

Remember when scooters weren't cool at all ?
Now everybody is cruising around on them.
Even C.F.O.' of some big banks in town.

Maybe we can all grow up and get over the bus thing ?

Anonymous said...

I wish we could all grow up and get over the bus thing. It would cheaper and actually move more people.

Anonymous said...

There is a solution to the pedestrian problem for many situations - pedestrian overpasses! They are all over Japan and I've seen them in other US cities like Boston. They would be great over streets like Independence, Monroe and 51. Why do I never hear of this idea here in Charlotte?

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