If you are under the belief that the recent study by UNCC's Center for Transportation Studies was paid for by the Charlotte Chamber, or somehow was connected with the Chamber: What are you smoking?
It was paid for by UNCC and done by a nonpartisan UNCC transportation study center whose director has a lengthy background in transportation studies.
Here's what happened: Chamber President Bob Morgan suggested to UNCC Chancellor Phil Dubois that the topic would be a good one to study. That's sort of like mentioning to Bob Johnson, "Say, you might want to get your players to practice shooting." I mean, Duh! You've got a center of transportation studies. Studying transportation is what it does.
Some people are offering up UNCC Professor Emeritus David Hartgen's studies as being more objective. Yet several of his most recent studies were paid for by interest groups with a specific position to advance: The Reason Foundation and the John Locke Foundation, two Libertarian think tanks that have funded a variety of studies opposing rail transit and Smart Growth. Those nonprofits have a point of view, and they use their money to advance it, hiring researchers who share those points of view. How is that somehow purer than a short report from UNCC's Center for Transportation Policy Studies, beholden to no one?
If you bother to read the UNCC study -- in contrast to most advocacy group studies such as those from Reason or the JLF -- you'll read no conclusions and no recommendations. Indeed, some of the information it offers will probably be of more use to people opposing light rail transit, such as the comparison of highway and transit spending since 1998.
"Our research has revealed a need for a comprehensive study of the economic, societal, environmental, land use and business impacts of LRT," it says. Gee, that's clearly a biased, tainted and suspect statement if I ever heard one.
I suppose some people are going to see dark conspiracies in such statements. Remember, there are more than a few people out there who think Commies in pink robes are hiding under the bed, or they put on tinfoil caps to keep the alien transmissions out of their brains. But the rest of you? Get a grip.
Some people who don't like mass transit are deliberately trying to plant the idea that light rail mass transit is a creature of the Charlotte Chamber. Though it's misleading, it's also a clever political stunt, because a lot of people here are suspicious of the Chamber. But if you think I blindly follow everything the Chamber proposes, well, you haven't been reading what I've been writing for more than a decade.
If you're thinking mass transit is a creature birthed and nurtured by Charlotte's business oligarchy then you are uninformed about Charlotte. For about, oh, the past century or so it was the conservative business oligarchy here that fought the concept of any government-funded public transit. They kept a pitiful bus system running on fumes and pennies -- and extremely high fares -- because business leaders didn't want their taxes raised just to make life easier for low-income mill workers and black people. It's still the ultra-right-wing descendants of those anti-tax businessmen who are fighting the transit tax now.
One last thought. Rick, I appreciate your devoted readership and your civility, but it's blindingly naive to say we can just get another transit tax in 2010, if we decide we want one again. State legislators from outside Mecklenburg just cackle if you mention that possibility.
What Mecklenburg voters do or don't want doesn't make a rat's patootie's worth of difference unless the legislature allows it. It took years to get permission to hold the 1998 referendum. If we have a transit tax and kill it, it will take years -- if ever -- to get permission for another one.
Get another transit tax in 2010? It would be easier, and about as practical, to just get hold of the pot of gold at the end of the next rainbow.
Wednesday, July 04, 2007
"The Chamber's study"?
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144 comments:
Careful, now. The truth might be too much for certain people to handle.
When the people fear the government, ther is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Mary,
You might want to double check your facts on the legal issues surrounding the implementation of the existing, on the books, transit tax legislation and language before you accuse me of being "blindingly naive."
If I'm wrong I'll fall on my sword and fully admit it, but I'd like to see you get an official legal opinion on the implementation of the existing transit tax language first.
Neither one of us is a lawyer, so that's the only right thing to do. Don't you think?
You've made phone calls in the past to debunk posters’ comments. Please make a few more this time. I’m a big boy. I can take it.
…but really now, name calling is beneath you.
Mary,
I think when you re-read your original post, you may well conclude that it does not advance your rhetorical objective and was ill-advised. Portions of it are impossible to square with the public record. Others are contemptible and beneath you.
First, no one in my shop is suggesting that because Hauser's work stemmed from a request by the Charlotte Chamber that it should simply be discounted. Research should be judged primarily according to its contents and attributions. We did so, and as you may have read, we found some questionable assumptions and figures, but such is the stuff of standard public-policy debate.
The major problem is that the report's origins were clearly misrepresented, in a way that continues to puzzle me and to embarrass those involved. I know and like Bob Morgan at the Chamber, and don't think he did anything wrong by sending a series of questions to UNCC to be explored. It was not, as you suggested, some casual remark of his that prompted the response, but an extensive request directed to the chancellor. The request was filled. The problem is that none of this was stated up-front, and after the fact the story of how the study came to be was, how shall I put this delicately, falsified. Why?
Your insinuations about the John Locke Foundation's relationship with affiliated scholars are false and demeaning. Dave Hartgen is not "beholden" to us. His conclusions are his own. He says what he believes, some of which my research staff agrees with and some not. Again, it is best to evaluate public-policy research based on its contents and sources, rather than casting aspersions and making unwarranted assumptions.
Finally, surely you jest if you think anyone will believe that downtown business interests in Charlotte haven't been fully behind the transit push from day one. I'm a native (that's why I don't use the pretentious "uptown" moniker, by the way) and I know better. I further know that your accusation that the "conservative business oligarchy" has been starving transit because it didn't want "taxes raised just to make life easier for low-income mill workers and black people" is appalling and ridiculous. Setting aside for the moment your conflation of local conservatives and the "business oligarchy," our argument has been that investing in city bus service makes more sense than regional rail service, in part because of the predominant living patterns in Charlotte, which aren't going to change anytime soon (check the data), and in part because rail is typically used to try to attract middle-class riders to the system, rather than truly to serve lower-income, transit-dependent riders, for whom buses are more useful for a variety of reasons.
If a person didn't know that the current fixation with light rail nationwide is about trying to draw mostly white, middle-class people into transit usage, then that would be a sign this person didn't much about the topic. Since you obviously do know quite a bit about it, I must conclude that you misspoke, perhaps out of anger.
Whatever the cause, accusations of racism are powerful things, best done after careful consideration and based on actual evidence. Let's stick to debating transportation priorities, shall we?
Finally, surely you jest if you think anyone will believe that downtown business interests in Charlotte haven't been fully behind the transit push from day one...
Reread the paragraph. Mary made a reference to historic conservative opposition to mass transit (ripping up the trolleys, strangling bus systems, etc.), and pointed out that the same conservative elements are at work today, trying to make rail transit a stillborn child. This is not to say that there are no business interests invested in rail, but that the pro-transit majority is still having to resist the economic influence of an anti-transit minority (as evidenced by a single citizen funding most of the anti-transit petition drive).
And it's not a coincidence that those same exact conservative elements have also dragged the stinking corpse of Jim Crow into the modern political arena. We all know who voted to effectively re-segregate the school system; those same elements are now pushing mass transit to the brink of disaster. The connection is obvious, and it's the JLF's fault for affiliating themselves with such a rancid element of our society.
John Hood, thank you for chiming in and postinging one of the most civilized posts I've seen on this blog in a long time. If more people could state their cases like that, we'd all be better off. That said, unfortunatrly, you are perceived by the company you keep. That company includes those who post many reactionary comments on your Meck Dec blog, as well as here,and in other platforms, such as talk radio, etc.
Contrary to popular belief, I will agree with a conservative viewpoint every now and then. What I won't agree with is half the reactionism posted by some here (just like I won't support a 'pinko' statement by the liberals). Mary is correct that the group of people fighting for the transit repeal are the same ones who have fought a lot of other anti-city, anti-progress, anti-anything else that doesn't fit into their narrow view of the world. Thay fought the 1998 referendum just as hard, and they were fighting everything else under the sun that threatened the Southern white-male establishment of the time.
If you can reeel these people in, then perhaps we can clean up the dialogue here, though you really have your work cut out for you in doing that. In the meantime, I will call others out as I see fit and defend the diverse progressive future this city has the potential to grasp.
Danimal
PS - Can we remove anon 1:28? I don't agree with Rick all the time, but that's just over the top.
Mary,
I agree with Rick, name calling beneath you...you are starting to sound like some of the anonymous posters on this here board.
Second, your quote at the end of the article:
"It took years to get permission to hold the 1998 referendum. If we have a transit tax and kill it, it will take years -- if ever -- to get permission for another one."
Are you suggesting as a reason to keep the tax is we might never get another transit tax? Seriously?
As we like to say down here in the South...
That dog won't hunt.
As we like to say down here in the South.........
"That's my sister ....... and my wife".
^ What she is saying is that even if Charlotte grows to the size of Atlanta, it will not have rail if we cancel funding now. Both the state and the feds have strict policies about funding approval, and it's a grueling process to get even the most basic rail service through all the legislation.
Think about how much Charlotte will grow in the next 50 years (probably by 50% or more). Do we really want a city of that size to be served by the same transit platform it used when it was the size of Monroe?
That $40 a year must be pretty important to right-wingers. Are they having trouble making rent?
Thanks Danimal. You are a gentleman.
How about it Mary? You willing to put your journalistic research abilities on the line?
Wow it is fun to read John Hood's level-headed, articulate, courteous and well-sourced replies as we watch Mary Newsom's despicable and irrational attacks show her becoming more and more unhinged.
My guess is that by the time the transit tax comes to a vote, the only thing Ms. Newsom will be able to type is "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" 50,000 times. Heeeere's Mary!
The desperation of the right-wingers becomes more obvious with every personal attack on Mary. I guess frustration will do that to a person.
Thank you, Mary, for tolerating the troglodytes who come onto your blog to vent their ignorance.
A more likely conclusion to your blog and other recent editorials by the Observer staff would be that "informed citizens" would have great doubt about words coming out of the mouths, or articles, by anyone associated with the Chamber, Center City Partners, etc. Something like, "How can you tell a politican/uptown cheerleader is lying?"
Anonymous said...
To the pro-light rail crowd who thinks repealing the transit tax shouldn't be allowed since we already voted for it, I have one word for you: Recall.
Political recalls have a long history in US government (federal, state and local). Prohibition, a constitutional ammendment was voted and passed by the public and then ultimately repealed by the public. How about the governor of California? Citizens changed their minds and elected a new governor because the felt the elected one was not fulfilling his job adequately.
Recall is simply part of the democratic process. When citizens see that something is not working as they thought (...Light Rail) when they originally voted, they form together to change their minds.
It's a long and storied part of US politics. So get over yourselves...it's part of our governmental process
If our county assessor would do his job, we wouldn't be worrying about a half-cent sales tax. Our property taxes are supposed to be assessed at market value for land and houses, but for years our assessor has lazily kept house values depressed based on age...the older the home, the lower the value. Thus, Myers Park and Eastover are chock-full of 5,000 square-foot, fully gutted and remodeled homes, completely structually updated, with $150,000 kitchens, valued at ridiculously low amounts like $300,000 because they were originally built in 1925, while new homes that size (more cheaply built) sitting 15 miles from uptown are valued at over twice that amount (even three times that amount). Thousands of investment bankers, lawyers and doctors are getting ridiculous tax breaks compared to people who can't afford to live close in. Homes that have sold this year for in excess of $2 million are on the tax rolls for less than $500,000 (land and structure combined)!!
Mary, you pay more in property taxes than a number of bankers who live within two miles of you in homes built 25 years earlier, and whose houses are worth three times as much as yours (no offense).
This is the quiet little issue that no one really wants to discuss because of all the important people it would upset...what fun it would be to blow this into the open.
I'm not sure what point Ms. Newsom is trying to make in her post.
The basis of most of the complaints about the UNCC/Hauser study is not that the Chamber paid for it. The issue is that released e-mails make it look a lot like the Chamber not only suggested the study, but was trying to frame the research parameters. Further, the e-mails also make it appear that the UNCC Chancellor and others at the Center for Transportation Policy Studies were vigorously assisting in this, but felt the need to maintain a low profile about it precisely because of their historical advocacy of transit.
Ask yourself: how often does the Chancellor go around handing out research assignments to staff? How often do research projects need to be cleared with UNCC counsel before they're green-lit (presumably because of concerns about political advocacy outside the bounds of IRC 501(c)(3))?
The problems are further compounded upon considering that when the study's author, Edd Hauser, went on the Mike Collins radio program on May 21 and flatly denied that anyone had come to him with this as a topic to study. This was, to be charitable, less than forthcoming.
While I hasten to add that there isn't any evidence that anyone besides the credited researchers edited the work or otherwise made any substantive changes, what does all of this look like? Especially when one considers that both the Chamber and the leadership of UNCC are strong rail backers? Definitely something other than a curious, independent scholar pursuing his research, heedless of where the truth may take him.
Unless, of course, you're blindingly naive.
But still, there is no direct criticism of the study's methods or results. Just a bunch of hot air and hasty conclusions.
Just a bunch of hypocrisy (as usual) from the right wing. It's ok for them to pay mercenaries to force their issues onto the ballot against popular opinion, ok for them to "buy" research to support their point of view... but if someone at the city's flagship university suggests that a rail study would be a good idea, they start ranting and raving about corruption and conspiracies. What a bunch of loony birds.
SOP is that Morgan goes to Hauser, contracts for the study, and pays for, and gets listed as a partner in the report. The way it did happen appears against UNC policy, a policy designed to protect the integrity of the unversity and it's studies.
*****************************************
Highlites from UNC policy:
UNIVERSITY RESEARCH RELATIONS WITH GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND PRIVATE ENTITIES
A. Appropriateness of University Research
All activities of the University of North Carolina, including research collaborations with private entities, foundations, and government agencies, must support its teaching, research, and public service missions. The University environment must allow faculty and students to freely pursue learning and research. The University must also maintain its independence and integrity to assure impartiality, and it may not agree to any inappropriate limits on the freedom to publish research findings. Most importantly, the University must retain the public's trust by engaging in research activities that are consistent in nature, quality, scope, and importance with its mission, and that are conducted under conditions that ensure its academic integrity. The chancellors are the responsible officers for the administration of this policy and they are to take such steps as are necessary to maintain it.
THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA POLICY ON RESEARCH MISCONDUCT
I. Research Defined. Research means a systematic investigation, including research development, testing, and evaluation, designed to develop or contribute to generalizable knowledge. For the purposes of this Policy, Research includes all basic, applied, and demonstration research in all academic and scholarly fields. Research fields include, but are not limited to, the arts, the sciences, liberal arts, applied sciences, social sciences, the professions, and research involving human subjects or animals.
II. Research Misconduct Defined. Research misconduct is defined as fabrication, falsification, or plagiarism in proposing, performing, or reviewing research, or in reporting the results.
a. Fabrication is making up data or results and recording or reporting them.
b. Falsification is manipulating research materials, equipment, or processes, or changing or omitting data or results such that the research is not accurately represented in the research record. The research record is the record of data or results that embody the facts resulting from the research inquiry and includes, but is not limited to research proposals, laboratory records, both physical and electronic, progress reports, abstracts, these, oral presentations, internal reports, books, dissertations, and journal articles.
c. Plagiarism is the appropriation of another person’s ideas, processes, results, or words without giving appropriate credit.
d. Research misconduct does not include honest error or differences of opinion.
III. Findings of Research Misconduct. A finding of research misconduct requires that:
a. There is a significant departure from accepted practices of the relevant research community; and
b. The misconduct is committed intentionally, or knowingly, or recklessly; and
c. The allegation is proven by a preponderance of evidence.
The UNC Policy Manual: 300.2.2
B. Conflict of interest relates to situations in which financial or other personal considerations may compromise, may involve the potential for compromising, or may have the appearance of compromising an employee’s objectivity in meeting University duties or responsibilities, including research activities. The bias that such conflicts may impart can affect many University duties, including decisions about personnel, the purchase of equipment and other supplies, the collection, analysis and interpretation of data, the sharing of research results, the choice of research protocols, the use of statistical methods, and the mentoring and judgment of student work. An EPA employee may have a conflict of interest when he or she, or any member of that person's immediate family, has a personal interest in an activity that may affect decision making with respect to University teaching, research, or administration.
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The request came through unusual channels, UNCC lawyers had to clear it, almost everyone had to distance themselves from it, wrote off on knowing the Charlotte Chamber's involvement was obscured, was given the opportunity to comment on the study before it was released, didn't credit the study as being done for the Chamber, didn't charge the Chamber for the study, and lied repeatedly to the media about the instigation of the study, and at least two other peer reviewers, done only after the release of the study, have noted significant errors in the study, which was overwhelmingly in favor of CATS, the group about which the Chamber submitted questions to the university to be answered in the study. Nope, nothing done wrong there, so says the Charlotte Observer op-ed today. The Observer seems to thing policies aren't needed and don't have to be followed to maintain the integrity of the UNC schools. The Observer seems to think that studies with hidden instigation, significant errors and questionable selection of data constitute "solid information."
Policy appears not to have been followed. What are the penalties? What investigation and review does policy require? Not only did the chancellor not take steps to prevent this, he participated in it, so it would seem. I've posed the question to the Board of Trustees and the Board of Governors and expect to hear back early next week. But it is disappointing to see that the Observer appears only working their position rather than actually working the story and following up on leads and questions.
Anon:
Go here for howling errors of fact in the study, including not knowing how long the South line is:
http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=4144
All:
Reaction to this new low-point in the transit debate:
http://charlotte.johnlocke.org/blog/?p=1617
7/06/2007 11:50:00 PM
Go back and read the comments from the original posting. There are 135 of them, many directed at the obvious problems with the report. You probably won't do it, but at least you can't say they aren't there.
The second and third that I wrote, outline the cherrypicking and apples-oranges comparrisons used by the "scholars" to bias their report.
Also, remember, bias is created equally by what someone does not tell you as by what they do.
marynewsom.blogspot.com/2007/05/
myth-busting-cats-compares-well-
with.html
Just a regular old Charlotte citizen here; I don't normally get into the fray of this pro & con light rail issue --- there's been so much written about the dynamics of the process by advocates on both sides that it's becoming muddled. So, as someone who does want our light rail project to become reality & to develop further, I decided to follow a link to the John Locke Foundation & see what the "other side" is saying. Jeff Taylor writes a lengthy but informative account of the history of the uptown bus transit center, pointing out that B of A was a key player (& payer) of it, and continues to be. And my response is: So what? I think that's great for the city & region.
Among his approx. 150-line blog entry, he then devotes four lines to propose that the rail project is essentially an already obsolete idea & that traffic in rapidly-growing Charlotte can instead be solved by telecommuting and HOT lanes.
And my response is: just what planet do you live on?
Watching and listening to these arguments for some time now, I really can't believe that a 1/2 cent sales tax is what has caused all this furor. I suspect that this battle is really a proxy for age-old cultural issues that will never be resolved as well as a marker, or test event for future battles that some will want to launch.
I think the tax will remain in place, because I think that most Charlotteans will agree that rail is just one of many necessary parts of a fully-functioning big city. Roads, rail, air, buses, all are critical to Charlotte's ability to move about.
Shame, however, on the weak leadership of the city's government. Strong leaders would be out re-selling the LRT, if that is what it takes and making sure that the repeal is defeated. They seem strangely silent, unless they're engaging in viral (word-of-mouth) marketing. Of course, city leadership took a credibility hit when a foolish, non-binding referendum was placed on a ballot with regard to a new arena. The city's ability to accomplish anything through the ballot has been regrettably damaged ever since.
What ever happened to the Charlotte that was thrilled with new growth, civic endeavors, reaching for the stars? That's the Charlotte I grew up with. Today's Charlotte seems fearful, resentful and forever ticked off about everything. That's too bad.
People in Charlotte today are still excited about the growth and reaching for the stars. It's just a few carmudgeons who have fought everything from the airport expansion to I-485 to pro sports to a revitalized uptown to gays becoming mainstream to light rail to whatever comes next that makes us a bigger city. Some people hate change and want to stink up the community trying to keep an old southern establishment in place. The more things change, the louder they will kick and scream. Hopefully, opening the system and defeating this repeal will be the final nail in the coffin this backwoods way of thinking here, and they will retreat to a community that better suits their beliefs.
Danimal
Please let us use this break time to remember that civility is important. I am new here (on this blog) and I actually see some progress and new understanding from all sides, libertarians, democrats, independents, etc.
Participants in other more polite discussion groups know it's a bit rowdy in here even for the more permissive folks. I note some of Mary's defenders throw out the insults freely. As do some of her opponents.
I have pulled broken bottles on street punks before, yet I think my manners are overall better than many posters. On other forums
things go better.
Danimal tells us it is "...just a few carmudgeons(sic) who have fought everything from the airport expansion to I-485 to pro sports to a revitalized uptown to gays becoming mainstream to light rail to whatever comes next that makes us a bigger city. Some people hate change and want to stink up the community trying to keep an old southern establishment in place."
It is hardly a few who voted the arena bundle down. It is hardly a few who voted down the last school bond. It is hardly a few when their numbers are in excess of 40% of any vote. A few would be less than - 10%? - 5%? or is a few less than 1%?
Danimal, it is not change many of us protest, but as been pointed out time and again, waste and misuse of taxpayer funds.
To distort those points, trying to convert them to some imaginary ideal of the distant past, which you would confer on those of us who regularly oppose waste and misprioritization, is contemptible.
In essence you resort to ad hominem attacks, a refuge for one without rational support for their arguments.
I question the motives of the anti-rail crowd. I don't believe they're necessarily wrong on many of the merits, but I believe that this issue is very PERSONAL for many of them, and their main goal is to strike out at McCrory.
It absolutely KILLS these people that McCrory has been elected (resoundingly) 6 times. They like to tout the 2001 arena referendum, but these folks can't get a candidate elected. I wonder why that is.
In any case, it's a shame that we can't debate the merits -- that it becomes the "anti" crowd bemoaning the "govco, uptown crowd," etc.
I believe there are legitimate questions about light rail. But many of the folks opposing it are operating on pure venom.
It's just flat-out easier to be opposed to things. Anything can be nitpicked and criticized by people who thrive on negativity. I'd be surprised if they didn't criticize Mother Teresa when she was in town.
The city makes an historic effort to integrate schools, creating a system which is renowned nationwide for its successes, and these people want to go to court to resegregate. The city builds an arena which is a smashing success for everyone involved, and these people want it cancelled. The city builds a rail line that has revitalized one of the county's biggest commercial corridors (before it has even started running) and these people want to rip it up by the tracks.
Next I suppose they'll want to stop "wasting" taxes on mail service, turn the public parks into parking lots, and privatize the police. Nothing is good enough, not even the unprecedented prosperity of the past 20 years.
Last anon,
Let's also say that the south line is a year late based on its originally proposed dates and more than 100% over original estimates while the whole transit plan has slipped from a 2025 plan to a 2030 plan (before it has even started running).
As for your other two comments...
I would hardly call CMS a success - integrated or otherwise - when most of the highschools regularly can't pass more than 75% of the students on end of year exams. (Several have less than 50% pass rates.)
I imagine you missed the Observer article a few months ago about the arena. The Observer reported that most restaurants and bars weren't seeing the bump in sales they expected after the arena opened. (Now, if by "everyone involved" you mean the billionaire that got a free arena and a deal that requires basically no property taxes while giving the arean free added police protection all at taxpayer expense, then I might agree with you.
Just because you want things to be a certain way doesn't make them so. Sometimes reality gets in the way.
"But still, there is no direct criticism of the study's methods or results. Just a bunch of hot air and hasty conclusions."
I'd remind you that both the CO's editorial board generally, and Ms. Newsom in particular, were quite conspicuous about Mr. Hauser's purportedly independent and disinterested perspective. Any "hot air" and "hasty conclusions" about this are theirs. I have no brief against Mr. Hauser's study, nor do I have any opinion with respect to Mr. Hartgen's.
Actually, I'm not sure which way I'll vote on the tax this November (maybe I should become more familiar with the studies!). I'm particularly troubled by the lack of any concrete plan B for providing bus services if the tax is repealed. (Full disclosure - I am a regular bus rider. I have a car and could drive to work, and, yes that would cost me a lot more money. But I also recognize that many who use the buses wouldn't have that option.)
But a vote to keep the tax is a ratification of Tober's incompetence, his and Syfert's obfuscation, the teeming arrogance and mendacity of the Chamber, our local daily, and the rest of the usual suspects. As for rail itself, I think it's probably a peripheral factor with respect to our traffic congestion and air quality. Except for the areas in very close proximity to any lines, which will see a good deal of gentrification, very little will change throughout the city.
Wow. Where to begin?
Let's also say that the south line is a year late based on its originally proposed dates and more than 100% over original estimates while the whole transit plan has slipped from a 2025 plan to a 2030 plan (before it has even started running).
Yes, it is a year late. Sometimes major projects get delayed, but according to your posts all throughout this conversation, that is not a serious problem.
As to cost overruns, the vast majority were out of CATS' control. A large portion can simply be chalked up to increases in the cost of steel, cement and labor. Most of the remainder is the fault of the Parsons Group, a private consultant that is not accountable to the public like CATS is (didn't you advocate increased privatization of the transit system?). This is not to say that CATS is not responsible for any of the overruns, but the reality is that the majority of cost increases are not attributable to CATS. Unless you think I-485 construction -- which is far MORE overbudget and behind schedule than LRT -- should also be stopped.
I would hardly call CMS a success - integrated or otherwise - when most of the highschools regularly can't pass more than 75% of the students on end of year exams.
CMS had a national repuation for excellence prior to re-segregation. West Charlotte, in fact, was one of the best public schools in the state (you would realize this if you lived here at the time). After the bus plan was shot down, and West Charlotte became about 95% black and poor, its scores plummeted to their current dismal levels. Similar stories can be told at West Meck, Garinger, etc. Conservative politics, not systematic incompetence, wrecked the public school system the same way they threaten to destroy the public transit system. Similarly, the rejection of the bonds had no positive effect on the system, and if anything has allowed another year of decay to take place unabated.
Once again, we can see that public services do not improve when their funding is cut. It just doesn't work that way, never has and never will.
I imagine you missed the Observer article a few months ago about the arena. The Observer reported that most restaurants and bars weren't seeing the bump in sales they expected after the arena opened.
This is where your one-sided reading of the Observer gets in the way of reality, Rick. The article simply said that bars and restaurants were learning that some events carried a larger crowd than others. It quoted the owner of Blue as saying that Bobcats games generated huge profit increases, whereas monster truck rallies did not. It also quotes the owners of LaVecchia's, Cosmo's, Connolly's, the Attic, Madison's, and the presidents of the Greater Charlotte Hospitality and Tourism Alliance, Bar Management Group, and Center City Partners as unanimously agreeing that the arena has had a significant positive effect on uptown. Your characterization of the article is obviously misleading; I would have thought that you were above such bush-league tricks.
Just because you want things to be a certain way doesn't make them so. Sometimes reality gets in the way.
Indeed.
Anon 3:34 PM
writes:
CMS had a national repuation for excellence prior to re-segregation. West Charlotte, in fact, was one of the best public schools in the state (you would realize this if you lived here at the time). After the bus plan was shot down, and West Charlotte became about 95% black and poor, its scores plummeted to their current dismal levels. Similar stories can be told at West Meck, Garinger, etc. Conservative politics, not systematic incompetence, wrecked the public school system the same way they threaten to destroy the public transit system. Similarly, the rejection of the bonds had no positive effect on the system, and if anything has allowed another year of decay to take place unabated.
West Charlotte was a good school because of the busing of south and southeast area students to a magnet school. The students who are doing poorly there now were hidden elsewhere. Removing busing did not change anything except test scores associated with specific schools, yet you act as if some great harm has been done because certain schools are now associated with the students of a more natural boundary.
Not so.
Further, the failure of the bonds should have resulted in a rethinking of the service provided by CMS administration and school board. It has not. But, due to the nature of capital funding and CMS bonds in particular, nothing has yet changed. Construction continues apace. Decay exists only because CMS refuses to properly fund and manage a maintenance program, not because of any vote on bonds.
The funding is there, the BOCC votes it every year. The decay is a function of poor decision making.
All of which we can expect from Tober and company, as Cato so painfully points out.
In any case, as the anon makes clear once again, distorting the truth makes good copy, but remains a distortion.
West Charlotte was a good school because of the busing of south and southeast area students to a magnet school. The students who are doing poorly there now were hidden elsewhere. Removing busing did not change anything except test scores associated with specific schools, yet you act as if some great harm has been done because certain schools are now associated with the students of a more natural boundary.
Anyone who works in education will tell you that concentrating rich and poor students (or black and white, high- and low-performing, or however you want to phrase it) in separate schools is a recipe for disaster. All the research indicates that the best systems are balanced and integrated, so that the high achievers help boost the challenged kids to better results. CMS was set up for failure the day that integration was ended. I would challenge you to find a single teacher or administrator anywhere in the system who says otherwise (politically-correct sound bytes not included).
Further, the failure of the bonds should have resulted in a rethinking of the service provided by CMS administration and school board. It has not.
This is the most important part of your post, because it demonstrates why a tax repeal will not fix CATS. If you want change in a public service, go to the polls and elect new leaders. They will establish a new vision for the system, which includes replacing ineffective or unpopular bureaucrats. That is how our political system works.
What you do NOT do is cut funding to a service, with the expectation that it will force leadership changes and result in an overall increase in quality of service. Public services don't work that way.
The whole problem with the anti-rail effort is that it ignores legislative reality. Voting to deny CATS a working budget is not going to force it to re-organize, nor will it force the removal of unpopular leaders (Tober). If you want those things, contact your local rep and have him/her make it happen. But to just pull the plug on public transit out of frustration is selfish and unwise.
to all forward (progressive?) thinking people:
Ask yourself first what constitutes "traffic"?
Traffic happens because of stop lights, stop signs, bad drivers, accidents, etc.
There would be zero "traffic" if you could move freely from point A to point B without running into the above mentioned scenarios.
There is existing technology TODAY that allows somebody/computer to run machinery (in my case-earth moving equipment- dozers, scaper, excavator, ATV, hand-held, CARS, etc) from a remote location (as the army how well it work for constructing runways in a war zone).
It uses GPS technology(gosh- just like the ones installed today in cars! If you watch NASCAR- they use the GPS to show car location,speed, brakes,and I don't know what all else.) tapes into the hydraulics, steering, etc to control the vehicle.
Each vehile can be in manual or automatic. You can decide when to use each. After entering a destination, the car's control is taken over from a master computer that contains ALL car infromation and can keep you on a stop free travel. It can change your speed/location as to not interfere with any other vehiles.
If you want to spend some money to ease congestion, this would be the most cost effective way I can see.
With cars burning cleaner each year and alternative fuels being produced will help with "global warming", but machine control will solve any traffic situation.
My two cents,
Thad
Anon,
My characterization of the Observer article matches exactly the article title :
BUSINESS NOT A SLAM DUNK YET
First Section of Article...
"When the Charlotte Bobcats Arena opened uptown, bar and restaurant owners figured they would be slammed before and after each sporting event or concert. One year later, they're still waiting for the onslaught of customers."
You termed it a "smashing success"
I don't have the whole article in front of me, but I seem to remember the restaurants saying they got a bump in business before events, particularly on typically slow weekdays, but not so much afterwards as they would have hoped.
I'm not sure 30 or so weekday night bumps from Bobcats games where police protection is taxpayer funded with hardly any property taxes paid by the Bobcats to help support a few restaurants should be considered a "smashing success" for a $200+ million arena.
If you think that's a good investment, you might want to check with your investment advisor. I think he may be ripping you off...
But the arena is off topic...back to the rail propaganda piece supported by Mary.
And Thad, how are you going to fund the startup for your proposals?
Rick, your attitude and mentality might be better suited in a place like Kentucky...oh, wait a minute.
Rick -- your comments about the arena involve very SELECTIVE choice of facts.
Since the arena was announced, no fewer than 8 major high-rise condos have been announced. This is causing unprecedented growth there and creating a vibrant center where young people want to go. Had you been uptown prior to 2000 or so?... it's night-and-day.
A vibrant center city is a big thing young professionals look for when choosing where to relocate.
In essence, you can't always define EVERYTHING in terms of dollars & cents.
So Mary,
It's a new week. After calling me blindingly naive on Friday, are you going to double check your facts on Monday?
It's really a simple yes or no question. Does the current transit tax statute require legislature approval for a revote after a repeal?
Legislators may not be the best people to ask on this one. I'd really like to know what you find out.
Oh, and another thing...
In today's opinion page, the Observer seems to vindicate many of the charges leveled at elected officials' misuse of government resources.
The April episode of Agenda Charlotte was the obvious misuse the paper is referring to when talking about the government TV channel.
Mayor McCrory stacked the "panel" with only pro-train members. He should have had others on there from CTAG who had different views. (My guess is that the next excuse will be that this was done before the repeal was officially on the ballot, so it doesn't count.)
How does this fit in with the clandestine request for a paper from UNCC which had specific questions aimed at thwarting a repeal effort? This report was completed using government money.
Hmmm...
Anon: 8:09 PM about CMS
you wrote:
"Anyone who works in education will tell you that concentrating rich and poor students (or black and white, high- and low-performing, or however you want to phrase it) in separate schools is a recipe for disaster. All the research indicates that the best systems are balanced and integrated, so that the high achievers help boost the challenged kids to better results. CMS was set up for failure the day that integration was ended. I would challenge you to find a single teacher or administrator anywhere in the system who says otherwise (politically-correct sound bytes not included)."
I was responding to your point about West Charlotte. It had high test scores because it brought it a large percentage of students from outside its natural boundaries.
Now you change the arguement.
My point is the school doesn't have test scores, students do. The fact that, according to you, students need to be homogenized by race and/or socio-economic factors in order to test scores for minorities and lower income students to rise, has nothing to do with West Charlotte per se, but which students were bused into West Charlotte.
To make the point clearly: why were only a few high schools excellent, if during busing they were all homogenized? Why not all? Is something being glossed over?
Other
Then you write that we should change our elected officials if we don't like what's happening instead of working against a tax: That to pull the plug is "selfish and unwise".
I beg to differ.
One fights the battles as they are presented. Further you write about public bureaucracies and how they work; that reducing their funding has no effect on operational processes. Maybe, but it does have some effect: it stops some of the waste.
But you suggest let the waste go on because, well, it's going to go on anyway.
"Selfish and unwise" indeed.
In return I suggest your recommended policies are naive, wasteful and supportive of arrogant public servants.
Doea anyone recall Jim Puckett staing a few years ago that "sprawl is a good thing?"
BTW, I wonder why he isn't a county commissioner anymore?
Because, like Daryl Williams and others before him, he declined to run again for a safe district seat. He decided to run for an at large seat, which is very difficult for a fiscal conservative, or a black person.
This is because the outloud fiscal liberals in this county are closet racists.
Further you write about public bureaucracies and how they work; that reducing their funding has no effect on operational processes. Maybe, but it does have some effect: it stops some of the waste.
So it's better to have no services than to have inefficient services?
Spoken like someone who's never had to ride a bus.
If you think that's a good investment, you might want to check with your investment advisor. I think he may be ripping you off...
But the arena is off topic...back to the rail propaganda piece supported by Mary.
Not so far off-topic as it seems, because the arena and rail issues both expose the radical-right ideology that your position assumes.
It's just not good enough that the arena has been pumping money into the local economy, that it's been the reason for landing huge events like the CIAA and ACC tournaments, that it's sparked the development of thousands of high-tax-value homes, that it's been key to the redevelopment of First Ward and the CBD, that it's created synergy with Imaginon and Epicentre and helped strengthen the city's core districts. Nope, that's just not good enough... let's tear it down because there are a few nights a year when it doesn't have any effect on uptown nightlife.
This is the same "anti-everything" attitude advanced toward the rail project. Never mind all the positive benefits that it's already had for South End and Uptown, the future benefits of linking the University to uptown via rail (ask UNCC students how they feel about that proposal), how far rail will go toward focusing development and creating walkable, livable districts in the city's decaying inner-ring neighborhoods, and how desperately Charlotte needs transit alternatives to counteract our dependence on gridlocked freeways. Nope, let's just cut funding because the project isn't perfect.
This is what happens when ideology becomes the focus of the political process. It's also the reason why your lot have such a hard time electing representatives, which is in turn why you have to rely on private campaigns to force-feed your agenda through recalls and court cases. Fortunately you are still in the minority (as you were in '98) and this city is sophisticated enough to recognize a Philistine when it sees one.
Rick, have you had your shots lately? It looks like you're beginningto foam at the mouth.
ummm...I don't think Charlotte's inner-ring neighborhoods are decaying. Just the opposite, in fact. Maybe you mean the middle ring on the east side? Even there, I see revival going on.
I also read the article in the Observer about businesses near the arena and their increased take. It seemed to me that some were doing well and some not as well as expected. However, I can't see how anyone can deny that the arena has been a plus for the center city. It might be interesting to ask Ghazi, Furman and other center city developers if they would have built their new (tax-generating) condo towers had there been no arena in place. At least one of them would not have been named Courtside, no?
Is there a city in America that would trade in its rail system for more pavement? Can you imagine how much more nightmarish Atlanta would be at rush hour without MARTA? Rail systems have to start somewhere and this is our start.
Thad, your proposal to minimize or eliminate traffic by automating private vehicles with GPS and other advanced technologies is great. I love it. It'd save lives, save frustration, and save fuel (in conjunction with much-more efficient fuel sources than we rely on today). I hope I live to see the day that it becomes reality. It is also, unfortunately, a classic example of the fallacy that one worthy solution negates another. (Although your post doesn't state it, I'm making the assumption that you think Charlotte's light-rail project is a bad idea; please correct me if I'm wrong.)
The causes of traffic which you mention are all true. I often marvel at how the interstate highways, which are a model of efficiency and freedom that has changed America since World War II in many good ways, can go from such super-efficiency to a total gridlock just because of one or more careless drivers having an accident. By contrast, I'm virtually never caught in a traffic jam near center-city because of the many alternate routes to get from A to B. (Another way to put it, by the way, is that in the latter case travellers have OPTIONS.) However, I think you miss some other reasons for traffic, which includes, simply, MORE CARS. In a nation with a growing population, and a metropolitan area that is especially so, do you really feel that there would be "zero traffic" with this technology in place?
I think it's terrific that some bright scientists and engineers are probably working on this system today. Science is great; unfortunately, it's the practical application of it that's the real challenge. Do you feel that this idea, which would entail a sea change in our nation's transportation system, would somehow be immune from the type of cost- and schedule-overruns that the rail project has had, and the outrageous ones that I-485 have had, as the necessary infrastructure changes are made to our highways & roads that'd support it? If you can offer a convincing answer, I'll be MORE THAN HAPPY to let the government add 1/2 cent in tax to every dollar of gas I put in my tank to support the program.
I can't believe we're seriously talking about GPS and buses as a substitute for organized metropolitan transit.
I hear there are also rickshaws and carriages uptown. Maybe we can work those into the plan somehow.
for GPS to work- nothong has to be done with existing roads. It is all done in the cars (machines). Like i said most new cars already have the GPS equipment on board.
Yes i beleive with more cars, there would be no "traffic"- (but yes, lots of cars moving at a constant/varying speeds).
Already is a reality (seen a demonstration with a city bus on an existing road), just need to implement it.
"(Although your post doesn't state it, I'm making the assumption that you think Charlotte's light-rail project is a bad idea; please correct me if I'm wrong.)"
Bad idea for whom- great for some, bad for others. I usually look at the ROI. You can decide for yourself.
The technology is here today, just getting it implemented is the hard part. ( I won't go into the information you can get today-your car will notify you when you need oil changes, tire pressure, fluid levels, temperature, speeding, stopping, starting- basically everything that runs a car.)
I agree, i would gladly pay a small tax for that- sales and gas.
Thad
one more thing-
what car can park itself now?
Thad
oh yeah-
google DARPA race if you want to see it in action-offroad
Thad
What is this harebrained crap? Is this what passed for "Plan B"?
It's staggering that the same people who want Tober fired are coming up with THIS kind of garbage as an alternative.
Looks like this vote comes down to a simple choice: Professional Incompetent vs. Amateur Nutcase.
Please see Rick's proposal in the other blog post. Excellent ideas...and all doable.
^ Nothing wrong with those ideas except that they aren't on the table. It's one thing to chit-chat in a blog where nothing's at stake, another thing entirely to implement those ideas in a 30-year plan.
It's that whole ideology/reality problem again.
Now, give him a chance.......I'm sure there were plenty of people who thought Edison was an "amateur nutcase" too. But I'm gonna hold Thad to the line here to defend his idea: you say "the technology is here today, just getting it implemented is the hard part." Indeed. Let's hear some more about just what you anticipate would be that "hard part", and can you honestly say that making our entire transportation system work within this concept would be anything less than, say, oh I don't know, a thousand times more expensive than light-rail in Charlotte? I could think of a hundred questions that would arise: how do we handle 'drivers' who take advantage of an automated vehicle to get drunk or sleep, thus impairing their critical judgement for other decisions while in public? How do the police handle traffic law enforcement? And so on. I find it ironic that the anti-light-rail camp, which is usually hair-trigger sensitive about any program that smacks of Socialism, would have the slightest interest in an idea that'd turn control over to "Govco", to use one of their favorite smarmy tags, for hwo & when they operate their own private vehicles.
The train makes sense for Charlotte, now & for many years to come. Now, let's get real, OK? Suggesting that this technology could be applied to the entirety of drivers because it has performed in a demonstration setting, is a bit like suggesting that everyone's given up candy bars & cigarettes because we live in an age of profound health knowledge.
"Nothing wrong with those ideas except that they aren't on the table. It's one thing to chit-chat in a blog where nothing's at stake, another thing entirely to implement those ideas in a 30-year plan.
It's that whole ideology/reality problem again."
Maybe this'll help frame this conversation:
The world needs Think Tank folks, and it needs the ones who actually implement ideas. Both are critical to a well-reasoned, problem-solving society.
Thad should be commended for his idea; however, he makes the error that it is part of the latter group, rather than the former, and therefore he & other light-rail opponents who advocate it are doing a real disservice to Charlotte by confusing the two, and by 'de-railing' (no pun intended) a very practical idea without being able to offer any worthwhile alternative.
as far as the driving laws- not much would change. Behind the wheel drunk- expect jail time. Underage also.
The cops don't need to concern themselves with most traffic laws becuase under control that is taken care of. cops can be used for what they are intended to serve and protect.
I never suggested GovCo take over charge. They don't seem to do things to well but might have to take what you can get.
the cost would be almost entirely in the car. Roads and GPS already exist and in use. (Right now- to fully automate a dozer-$10,000)
GPS machine control technology has vastly improved in the last 5yrs and continues to get better today (ask surveyors who are loosing work to guys on graders and dozers because ntheir blades are more accurate than the surveyors!)
By the way, I take my ideas being called "harebrained crap" as a compliment because I'm laughing all the way to the bank with the checks for my "harebrained crap".
Thad
Thad, I'm impressed by your defense of this idea. Sounds like you've given it a lot of thought & know quite a bit about the technology.
An automobile, which frequently contains one person, takes up about 12 feet (a travel lane width) x about 40 feet (the car/truck's length, plus the same or more buffer space in front of or behind it). If it's nearly or fully stopped, as in slow-moving traffic, it'd be more like 12 feet x 19 feet. (Presumably, the GPS idea would more closely resemble this latter amount of room b/c one of its features would be the ability to space & control vehicles more efficiently.) When one comes to this realization, it'll make one a lot more tolerant of the next traffic jam they're stuck in.
By contrast, a bus or train car would carry, on average, perhaps 30 people in a space occupying 12 feet x about 70 feet. Of course, these numbers can be debated but hopefully my point is taken. As much as I'd love to zip around in my George Jetson private cocoon, I hafta say I think your idea that we can eliminate traffic without giving up some our precious personal mobility just doesn't hold water. And I won't even ask you to propose how every vehicle, new or used, will be fitted with a sophisticated GPS measuring & control system that would cost $10,000 or anything close to that, when many drivers can afford only a little more than that amount for their car itself.
to Thad:
You refer to NASCAR cars using GPS, and also to earthmoving equipment using it.......if the idea is that GPS for all cars would allow them to be operated without human intervention, then why is there even a NASCAR driver behind the wheel, or a bulldozer operator in the cab, or at least operating that sole machine from a remote location? Presumably, they serve some worthwhile conventional purpose.
Please clarify.
Of course, Thad's genius plan requires every single member of society to own a car and use it for all their transit. Should we be surprised at this little wrinkle?
Seriously. Why are we discussing this? We might as well be on a sci-fi forum.
Just a couple of thoughts...
The plan I proposed in the posts on the previous thread is completely workable and does NOT completely preclude the use of trains. (When Mary gets around to verifying her facts the legality and workability of it will become even more clear.)
It simply says that the people should have a choice because they were given incorrect information last time. It also says that if the train on South Blvd proves itself that building more trains would be OK with me. I even threw off my fiscally conservative hat and said that I'd be willing to risk the cost increases to wait a year or two to make sure more money isn't spent if the south line fails to meet projections.
The fact that the prorailers attacked it so aggressively should tell you something. Why don't they want people to express their opinion at the ballot box? If, as they claim, public opinion has not changed since 1998, what do they have to fear? Why can't they wait a little bit before starting another line? Show a little patience? This is a 30 year plan after all. Why?
311 service was disabled today. I think we should spend all kinds of time and money on a vote whether or not to strip the service down to Square One and start all over again, but only if 911 functions perfectly for 2 years. Sounds like a good idea, right rick?
That'll show those smarmy 311 operators who's boss.
"That'll show those smarmy 311 operators who's boss."
Cute!
From this we learn, once again, when you can't make a real point, make up a point which seems real.
Mary,
Still waiting. I can try to find you the phone numbers if you wish.
Rick,
The problem with your idea about getting a new tax in 2010 is not that it isn't legal, but that it's a political non-starter.
We don't get any sales tax without the N.C. House and N.C. Senate approving it. They won't. They are very reluctant to grant sales taxes for any county for any reason.
That's because the sales tax in general is revenue the state government depends on. They know it can't get too high or voters will freak. So they don't want counties jacking up their own sales taxes.
Plus having a patchwork of different sales tax levels every time you cross a county line is bad tax policy, legislators believe. (I think they're right about that.)
Finally, a significant number of legislators don't like the sales tax on general principles, believing it's regressive in a way that income and property taxes are not.
If Mecklenburg kills a sales tax its legislators fought very hard for over a period of years (and which passed when the legislature's Republicans were much less knee-jerk anti-tax than those now serving) and then turns around and ask for it back again in a few years, the legislators will just laugh in our faces.
Non-Mecklenburg legislative leaders of both parties have told me so.
MAry, I do believe that Rick's point is that the legislature has authorized the sales tax. I believe the language used is that the county "may" levey the tax. The state did not compel the county to levey the tax, it merely authorized it to do so subject to a referendum. The county can stop charging it for a period of time, and then begin again without having to re-authorize it, sine the law does not provide for the withdrawal of authorization. The state has givne the authority to charge the tax: it does not specify that the authority lapses if the county fails to levy the tax. The referendum is not to reverse the enabling legislation, which would remain unchanged.
In other words, the county can stop charging it but still has the AUTHORITY UNDER STATE LAW to charge it, and so can begin again if it should be found necessary.
IT wouldbe useful if you knew what you were talking about before suggesting that Rick didn't know what he was talking about!
The rudeness toward Mary really needs to stop. You are free to disagree with her, but there is no call for personal comments directed toward her. She is going out of her way to provide a forum for us to debate these topics, but in no way does that entail having to take trash-talk from anonymous jerks.
Say what you will, but Mary has never been rude or insulting toward a single person on this blog. Please show her the same respect she's shown you.
I am the writer of the post immediately above the appeal to avoid rudeness. I hardly think it is rude to point out that Mary is simply wrong in holding that a the tax could not be re-initiated by the county after a repeal referendum without authorization by the legislature.
And given that she was rather condescending to Rick AND WAS WRONG IN HER ASSUMPTIONs, I find it at least gentle to point out the obvious fact: that one ought to know the facts before deriding someone else's knowlege of them. She's an adult and she's human. She's capable, of making mistakes and I think she's probably capable of having that pointed out to her.
(Besides, there are only two choices here: either she did not understand the law but was willing to refer to Rick as naive because of his comments which were in fact ACCURATE, or she knew better and attempted to marginalize his comments in spite of the facts. Neither of those is exactly attractive, but the lesser is the assumption that she did not know. In fact I think it would be rude to assume that she was willfully misrepresenting the facts.. .)
^ This is the tone of political dialogue nowadays. We are truly in the Fox News generation.
I have to disagree about Mary not being rude. She, as others on the Observer editorial staff, use words such as silly and knuckleheaded to describe the ideas of those they disagree with.
While the attack word is not directed towards the person, it is still an attack, and is meant to be demeaning and rude. Towards what purpose, I can only guess. Two would be; stop the person suggesting the ideas by trying to make them feel bad about the idea, or trying to make others think the idea is bad by calling it names.
I have suggested directly that it is actually a lack of ability to use the language and of having good ideas of their own.
In any event, this is intentional rudeness because in asking Mary to desist she specifically declined.
Mary,
Explain then when our political leaders want Afro-American Cultural museums, NASCAR Hall of Fame, "complicated land swaps" for baseball stadiums and parks, they snap their fingers and get it done?
I don't oppose all of these, but it's a joke that when they want to SPEND taxpayer money, it gets done.
When citizens want to re-evaluate and re-prioritize then Raleigh turns into the Third Reich and nothing can be done.
We ain't buyin' it.
Pete
^ You just named projects that involve about a dozen different types of planning, legislation, approvals, votes, taxes, etc.
Half the problem with the "anti" crowd is that it takes this oversimplified approach to government. In real life, you can't just ignore legal procedures and "get it done" whenever you want something to happen. Any of the entities you named above took years and years of preparation to acquire, and none of them are even close to complete.
Doesn't matter, because Mary is simply wrong that the legislature would have to approve re-instituting the transit tax if they stopped levying it now. Rick was correct: they could stop the tax today and if it proved disireable to the public, subject to a later referendum, start levying it again.
I'm not going to comment on whether it requires legislature to renew the tax, because I really don't know (and Rick earlier admitted he didn't know either, and nobody has yet come to the forefront with a definitive answer either way).
But what I DO know is that you can't just turn a transit system's funding on and off like a tap. The projects listed above do "matter" because they are all examples of the coordination required for even a single civic building to be constructed. A rail transit system is MUCH more complicated because it involves buying right-of-way, modifying large stretches of infrastructure, and managing a business-sized workforce.
In other words, we don't have the option of cancelling the system today and starting it up again tomorrow. The repeal vote is a permanent decision, whether the legislature says so or not. If we cut the project, it's gone for at least a generation.
Mull on that a little.
IT's easy to find the legal answer. The law was part of a change made to facilitate the tax in 1997. It can be found at the General Assembly web site under "session laws". It is S.L. 1997-417. Part one of that law applies only to Mecklenburg.
Precisely as previously stated, it allows the colleciton of the tax if it is approved in a referendum. It limits how the proceeds may be used and other similar matters, but it does not require re-authorization if there is a repeal of the referendum nor does it establish any time frame of its own after which new legislative approval would be required.
Simply put, the legislature approved the collection of the tax if and when the BOCC placed an advisory referendum on the ballot. Other sections (Article 39 of section 105)of the general statutes allow a repeal referendum of a locally imposed tax, but that section too does not impact the ongoing authority to levy the tax.
Mecklenburg has the authority to levy the tax or not and will continue to have thgat tax unless the legislature passes a bill denying them that authority.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
Anon from the various posts about the legislation obviously took the time to actually read it. (And it wasn't me if some of you out there are thinking I wrote them.)
However, the second to last anon from 7/10/2007 02:54:00 PM is not so correct.
I did not say that "I didn't know." I said...
"If I'm wrong I'll fall on my sword and fully admit it, but I'd like to see you get an official legal opinion on the implementation of the existing transit tax language first.
Neither one of us is a lawyer, so that's the only right thing to do. Don't you think?"
Mary still hasn't done that. You know, and I know why. The answer is not to her liking.
So, back to the plan I posted earlier.
IF the current implementation of the transit tax is repealed, the money can and will be there in the future to expand the train system once it proves itself. The transit tax could be implemented earlier than my proposed 2010 to fund the bus system if needed.
What does not need to continue is the fear that property taxes will skyrocket, bus service be destroyed, or fire and police service be reduced. There are other ways.
I did not say that "I didn't know." I said...
In other words, you could have made your point up front but instead felt the need to drag the conversation out over 76 extra posts, with the only apparent goal being to try and humiliate Mary and cast yourself triumphant.
Just another example of the bombast and rhetoric that the Antis substitute for legitimate argument. As several posters have now pointed out, legislative procedures are only a peripheral issue to the core of Mary's original point: that it will be politically impossible to destroy the rail system and then revitalize it in less than a generation.
Implying that the repeal vote is intended to "reform" the rail project is just dishonest; you know as well as everyone else that the vote is whether or not to cut the system permanently. This stuff about "options" after a repeal is nonsense. There is no Plan B.
Rick, I had actually gained a little respect for your ability to address the details of this issue and provide thoughtful responses. It saddens me that in reality you're nothing more than another talking head with an agenda. I can handle political disagreement; but only if people are being up front about their political and rhetorical purposes. You seem to care more about having the last word than about the integrity of your argument.
Sure there's a plan "B". That's exactly what city staff and elected politicians have been talking about. The only issue is whether they have presented the best or even the only reasonable alternatives.
I frankly don't know the answer to that, but I do know that virtually EVERY time there is a matter of adjusting a tax, the city manager can be counted on to point out that the only alternative involves dramatically cutting police and fire. After listenting to that mantra each time there is council debate about a tax, when I hear that now, I presume that I am not listening to rational alternatives, but rather advocacy. I think that in all likelihood that is exactly what the city has generated so far in response to the issue.
I don't know -nor I suspect does anyone else here- whether at this point ending the half cent sales tax is a reasonable thing to do. My sense is that it is not. But I would prefer a SERIOUS effort by the city to strategize alternative plans. I don't believe they've yet done that. A this point they are doing their best to advocate by producing disaster scenarios and insisting there are no options.
I do think that the referendum is symptomatic a a larger problem that the council and the uptowners need to open their eyes to: the stunning arrogance of the government/business/press cabal in this city is no longer something that can easily be contained to the boardrooms and back rooms where the players have always assumed that they know best what the citizens need. People today have far better access to information, and far better ability to coordinate and communicate than in the past. Constantly gaming the public is not likely to remain a winning strategy. The peasants WILL pick up the torches and the pitchforks at some point.
The referendum is perhpas a leading indicator of that. It is certainly one of the by products of the arena deal. The failed school bond issue last cycle is of a similar nature: there is farily broad dissatisfaction with local government. A good bit of that stems not from the quality of decision making, but from the arrogance that holds that the public can be fooled at will.
Alternative methods of impacting government don't happen if the public percieves the government as responsive to the broad public rather than to narrow interests. This referendum should tell the council, the BOCC, Center City parterns, the OBserver and the Chamber, among others that there is a much larger problem than whether people like trains.
Constantly gaming the public is not likely to remain a winning strategy. The peasants WILL pick up the torches and the pitchforks at some point.
If the problem is as broad as you suggest -- and it might well be, though I suspect that Charlotte's unprecedented vitality and growth balance the political equation somewhat -- then the voters need to exercise their electoral power and replace the city's leadership. That is the purpose of elections in the first place. Gutting government programs does not change the City Council or the Mayor or any other position. Accountability comes from votes, not obstructionist campaigns.
I think it really bothers conservatives in this area that Charlotte has grown so much under a relatively liberal administration. It bothers them that McCrory has been reelected about a hundred times in a row, and overseen some of the most important improvements in the city's history. It bothers them that the arena was a success. It bothers them that Uptown and its surrounding neighborhoods now form a true big-city core district. It bothers them that this place, which was once a stronghold of conservative (and even outright regressive) ideology has changed into a different animal within only a few generations.
So, being in the minority and unable to win an election, these conservatives use private money to try and frustrate the city's growth as much as possible. To them, it must feel better to obstruct a project than to accept it and move on. That is why this repeal vote has even gained traction in the first place: a frustrated, wealthy conservative who can afford to hire mercenary petitioneers to force a special-interest issue onto the ballot.
As far as the tax "burden" is concerned, let's not forget that this argument is all over $40 a year per taxpayer. That breaks down to less than $3.50 per month. That's a tiny, TINY tax to pay for a permanent citywide utility which dramatically effects the long-term outlook of the local economy. So it's not about money. It's not about accountability. It's about politics, pure and simple.
Torches and pitchforks, that's funny. I can see a small number of folks just trying to do that one day in a protest. It will be a small number of folks, and they will look as silly as one of those piddly KKK rallies, and the rest of us will see them for what they really are.
Unfortunately the specific problem that causes discontent is that votes are, to varying degrees, meaningless in Charlotte. The districts are drawn in such a way that each of them belongs to one of two political parties, each of which can very near to anoint their candidate by controlling the slate in the party primaries. to a great degree, the general elections are irrelevant because of the gerrymandered districts.
At large races have traditionally been almost wholly within the control of one group in Charlotte. While the control of the Black Politicla Caucus has not been direct, their influence -largely via churches- is so strong that no candidate opposed by the CBPC has ever won an at large race; no candidate supported by them has ever lost.
Look, if you seriously think that the pay-to-play system that has been the hallmark of state government since the days of Rufus Edmiston does not have a counterpart in Charlotte, you do not understand how things happen here.
Bottom line, in any case, is that a fairly large sense of disenfranchisement is not a matter of partisan leanings. There are more Democrat voters in Charlotte than Republican but the arean referendum failed and the school bond issue failed in spite of that. There is no evidence that those votes were partisan. For that matter a good bit of the strength of the petition for a repeal referendum was generated in West Charlotte zip codes that are SOLIDLY Democrat.
That happens when people understand that they are along for the ride, but the controls belong to a very few whose interests have little or nothing to do with the public, Republican or Democrat.
And the private conservative interests who are attempting to "buy" a tax repeal are supposed to be perceived as populist white knights?
This is not a "silent majority" situation, no matter how the talk-radio and blog squawkers want to paint it. From the get-go, the anti-rail effort has been driven by a small, wealthy minority.
First of all, you may want to pay attention to what should be obvious from my previous post: I am not advocating for the repeal of the transit tax. I am simply pointing out what, from any reasonable distance should be obvious: that efforts such as the tax repeal (and the failed arena referendum and the bond issue failure) do not get legs if the general populace believe they have a voice.
It really doesn't matter that the petition drive was well financed. If it were simply a matter of having bought a number of signatures, the council, the chamber, CCP, the BOCC and some very serious development interests would not be working overtime to head off a possible repeal. If it were just well financed signatures, there would be little to worry about come election day. That those folks ARE worried is only because they have some fear of the outcome.
A well financed petition drive that turns up 50,000 signatures is not going to win an election. That requires that there be an underlying issue that resonates with a majority of the people how go to the polls. Obviously no one with a stake in the outcome is taking that vote lightly, because they know that it goes a bit deeper than a petition drive having scoured the county for every last person who would vote to repeal the tax.
One last thing: you have enough red herrings in that post to stock a deli. I didn't suggest motives or character for the originators of the petition drive, nor does it matter if they are noble or if they are scoundrels: the bottomn line is that the referendum is only a problem if if it could win, and that has little to do with the organizers and a great deal to do with they way the general public feels about their government.
And the the wealth of those who started the petition drive matter to neither the the nature of people's response to it, nor the "purity" of their position. I believe you'll find that much of the wealth in Charlotte is held by people who are in favor of the LRT system, so it hardly makes sense to deride their opponents as wealthy.. But in any case, it doesn not, as I say, matter to the repsonse of the public.
ANON 7/11/2007 08:49:00 AM ,
As a reporter, Mary gets paid to be correct in her statements, and when she wants to, she will aggressively investigate posters comments that she doesn’t like. This blog is an official extension of the current paper of record and should actually reflect the facts. There was plenty of opportunity to come clean on this one once challenged, and those opportunities were not taken. This forum does discuss very serious issues (Harry Potter not withstanding), and believe it or not, it is read by a fairly wide readership. As the moderator, Mary’s statements have particular influence.
As for hiding true motives in rhetoric…
Do you honestly think the city and county legal staff do not know this option to be true? They’ve had to fully understand this legislation during this debate.
Do you honestly think Ron Tober is not intimately familiar with every syllable of the legislation? Well, probably not, but he should be.
Do you honestly think Mary, a person who makes her living investigating these types of issues, should not know this option to be true?
Do you think, just possibly, the reason that this perfectly legal and workable solution has not been mentioned by the government is that it would increase the likelihood of the repeal succeeding because it pops their fear balloon? No property tax increases, and no bus service cuts, and certainly no police and fire cuts.
The other anon had it exactly correct. This government will always resort to threats such as reducing safety rather than providing the public all of the information needed to make an informed decision. Their options are actually advocacy, or not really options at all.
As for my posing a somewhat leading question and then demanding an answer, that’s just the first rule of debate. Don’t ever ask a question if you don’t already know the answer.
Rick,
Mary is an editorial writer, not a reporter, so she is paid to have an opinion. Newspapers have, and will always, stake a position with an issue. If you don't like the Observer's stance, go pick up a Rhino Times, or some other rag that is more aligned with your beliefs.
If Mary and the Observer choose to counter your statements and shoot holes in them as they see fit, so be it.
As for blogs, we all know what a free for all this is. Again, this is a soundboard for all of our opinions, not just your Rick.
You can accuse the city's most prominent paper of distorting the 'facts' just as much as I often accuse the most powerful AM station in the market.
Every time you open your mouth (or peck the keyboard) Rick, I and many others, are going to state our beliefs as well. If I can convince just one of these 'many' readers on this blogs to take my side, then that is just plain excellent.
Obviously, you are not going to shut up until November, and you know what, neither am I. A great many of us, some newcomers and some who have been here for a long time, actually like our local government, the decisions they are making, and the direction this city is going. Some of even like the fact that that it puts you and your cronies in fits of rage. To us, that means the city is doing just fine.
Keep posting your beliefs Rick, but get over the fact that I, Mary, and countless others are going to call you on your arrogance.
See you on the train.
Danimal
Danimal,
Are you saying editorialists don't have to be correct? That they can just make up facts as they see fit? Surely not.
Anyway, if trying to be factually correct and then sticking to those facts is now considdered arrogance, count be guilty.
As for me "getting over" the fact that you, Mary, and others try to call me on things...that statement carries a very high regard for your own opinion.
Do you think I care that much about it?
^ Mary is still correct that it would be easier to move a mountain than to re-instate funding for the LRT if it were cut. You're quibbling over legislative issues and ignoring the greater point, which you know to be true.
Must be another rule of rhetoric.
Rick, Mary has brought up facts, unfortunately you don't like the facts she has presented. Call them junk science, biased, whatever, because many of the points you have brought to the table can be interpreted exactly the same way. I know you don't care what I and some others think. That is why I won't try to convince you of anything. I'm just going to do my part to make sure your position loses this fall. That said, I will not try to censor you, just like you and your crowd have tried to to a lot of people lately.
Danimal
Danimal,
What facts are those?
The one where the state legislature won't approve a new tax? Fine that very well may be true (even though it is nothing more than an opinion). But more importantly, it is irrelevant because they don't have to approve anything.
Or was it the fact that the conservative inspired reports were up front and honest about who funded them - The Reason Foundation and JLF? As opposed to the hidden source of the Chamber inspired report. They typically take credit for the reports they ask to be done. This time they didn't.
Or was it the fact that Mary seemed to agree that the Chamber report could show that too much money was being spent on mass transit versus roads? (That was in her original post.)
Please tell me which facts don't I like?
You say your goal is to make sure my position loses this fall. Ok, that's fine. That's what people are supposed to do in debate. However, my position is that the voters should have ALL of the information when making a decision. That's why I pose other workable alternatives that your side won't.
I'm not trying to censor anyone. Mr. McCrory and govco can say what they want. But since they make use of government resources when doing so, then they should give the other side a chance to respond. The recent Observer editorial actually agreed with me on that one.
Danimal,
It is difficult to censor someone from a place of no authority. Even if the Observer chose never to publish another of my comments or letters, that is not censoring, that is their choice for their paper. When Puckett, Ashcraft and others pushed to have McCrory et al stop using government funds improperly, that was not an effort at censoring but proper use of government funds.
No one, except you and a few others suggest this is censorship.
No one asked that McCrory and anyone else stop speaking to the issue, just don't use public money to spout their position UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
Distorting the truth is, I find, typical of many of those who support Rail Lite. You seem to continually add yourself to the list.
Lewis Guignard
"Distorting the truth is, I find, typical of many of those who support Rail Lite."
Since you're a champion of truth and justice, you ought to volunteer to monitor the mercenary petitioneers while they stand in the transit center handing bus riders a pen and paper and saying "sign this to lower your taxes". You can be the person to explain to them how they're signing a petition to end the bus route they're currently relying on for employment.
to all:
In this months Grading & Excavation Magazine-last paragraph
"Future Is Now—Intelligent Earthwork Systems
The next and possibly final stage of development for automatic positioning systems is the intelligent earthwork system (IES). In theory, IES could do away with the human operator completely, with fully automated systems not just adjusting the elevation and tilt of the machine blade as it moves, but actually moving and steering the machine across the job site in accordance with existing topography and the designed grading plan. Naturally, nobody is going to trust a computer to safely maneuver itself without human oversight, so a flesh-and-blood operator will always need to be in the loop to pull the plug if necessary on a machine that is about to run over someone or ram into another piece of expensive equipment. There have been some advances in this direction, with the operating box also controlling the machine’s movement, transmission, steering, braking, etc. Further advances in artificial intelligence and robotics will be needed before such a system becomes practical. As the saying goes, they’re still working the bugs out."
Daniel P. Duffy, PE, is employed by URS Corp. in Akron, OH
GEC - July/August 2007
Have a nice train ride,
Thad
Yep, sounds like driverless automobiles are right around the corner for the general population. Go ahead and add that to the 2030 plan, no need for mass transit anymore.
Pardon me while I have some Kool-aid...
P.S. -- the same company (URS) cited in the article above is currently working on the Portland streetcar and Hiawatha Light Rail line. Doesn't sound like they're cancelling any projects just yet.
Anon asked for truth police for the anti-tax petitioners. In doing so (s)he implied that those who signed the petition weren't smart enough to realize what they were signing, all ride the bus, and buses didn't exist until the transit tax was imposed.
I'll start with you.
Your generalizations and distortions are typical of rail supporters.
Lewis
So what are the odds that the self-investigation initiated at UNCC finds anything?
Anyone taking bets?
My guess is that you should get a million to one on that.
Here's my prediction...
They find no actual wrong doing. (Shocking I know.) Then explain away the numerous factual errors in the report due to trying to get it out quickly. They'll say they were trying to get it out quickly becuase of the timely nature of the discussion, but certainly not to influence any voters. They'll explain the cherry picking and apples-oranges comparisons the same way. They didn't have time to do a complete 100% study of all projects so they just randomly picked some.
They'll say Edd Hauser had not committed to the report until after the March MTC meeting. That's sort of like Bill Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman". While word smithingly true, are we really supposed to believe it?
Honestly, I don't know what else they really could say.
Rick...
For starters, local leaders and pro-light railers could at least be honest with the public and disclose that the 1/2 cent sale tax will not provide all the funds necessary to operate bus + 3 rail lines. There will be a deficit about 2x's the transit tax revenue. It's very simple math. As Mary points out, new sales taxes are not easily given out, so the only revenue stream available is property taxes. The voters approved a transit plan soley funded by the 1/2 cent sales tax, not by property taxes. The mandate has been exceeded.
(Ironically, the first doom/gloom/threat from Gov-Co for the repeal was increased property taxes...Hmmm sounds like they've known about this for a while....)
Second, the mayors of Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson need to be honest with their citizens. While TIF's are touted at a savior for the North line, each municipality will be giving up tax revenue to CATS for paying back the TIF's. This lost revenue will not be available to pay for the increased infrastructure and service costs brought by light rail development. In the end, citizens in Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson can expect property tax increases to offset revenue lost to TIF's.
Lastly, the little information nugget that the 1/2 cent transit tax is collected at the pleasure of the county and can be stopped and restarted at any moment is an incovenient truth that local leaders and CATS have been less than forthcoming about. Instead they scare everyone with how "permanent" the repeal would be and how getting a new sales tax passed would be like climbing Mt. Everest.
Pro LTR likes to talk about how dishonest the repealers are. Seems like they're throwing rocks around their own glass houses.
To anon @ 11:32pm:
Do you think a transportation design company would give up a cash making project like LRT?
Who's drinking kool-aid?
Thad
That UNCC is internally investigating the study that is the topic of this thread is in itself telling. Were it the case that there was just clearly nothing improper, that wouldn't be happening. There are always critics of research projects. Universities react when internal actions threaten their academic reputation within the community of academics.
Cosy relationships between government and academia are not unusual, nor are research projects that reflect the concerns of donors and grantors. Lieing in public about the genesis of a research project is another matter. So is allowing client review of research before release. So is having a clearly non-academic interested party involved in the research (Dennis Rash).
I frankly doubt that is the first time all of those things have happened. (In fact I think it is a fair bet that when a retired BOA VP with no credentials and only OJT expertise in governmnent, transportation, public policy or urban planning winds up at the heart of the Transportation Policy Study group, you can count on him not being there because of his credentials, but rather because of the interests of BoA's real estate arm). The only unusual thing here seems to be that the e-mails got out and a little sunshine got in.
There doesn't seem to be much that is more feared in Charlotte's Good Ol' Boy network more than sunlight. There might be a reaosn for that.
"...that the 1/2 cent sale tax will not provide all the funds necessary to operate bus + 3 rail lines. "
Gee, how convenient of you to omit the fact that state and federal grants help off set most of these deficits. sure, you can tell me the formula has changed on these grants, but what's not to say that they can't be changed again with the current congress, not to mention all three of our congressional reps have supported this project all along?
"...In fact I think it is a fair bet that when a retired BOA VP with no credentials and only OJT expertise in governmnent, transportation, public policy or urban planning winds up at the heart of the Transportation Policy Study group, you can count on him not being there because of his credentials, but rather because of the interests of BoA's real estate arm..."
I love how the right thinks we should have more CEO's in government positions so they can run things 'like a business', only to turn when those CEO's don't advocate the way they like.
You right wingers distort things more than anyone I know. It just makes me laugh at what extent you will go to keep this city in the backwoods.
Danimal
Danimal...
I agree that Fed and State funds are being used for the capital portion of the transit system. It's quite clear. But, we are on the hook for debt service, which nearly tripled in '05 and nearly doubled in '06.
In terms of system operating expense, which the 1/2 cent sales tax covers, I have doubts with your assertion. CATS operating budget has a revenue line item for "operating assistance." Though it provides no detail of the funding's origin, let's grant your premise and call these federal and state grants funding operating expense. Do you really expect CATS' allocation to jump from the current $14.0 MM (2007 budget which includes South Corridor LTR) to $91 MM (550% total increase / 30% yearly for 18 years) for the bus +3 line plan? Highly doubtful.
So, where do you think the money will come from for the remainder?? If it's property taxes, the voter approved mandate has been exceeded. The voters have the right to know about it and revote on it.
FYI
CATS has already approached north Meck towns with TIF proposals.
From the HERALD:
"Adds Cornelius’ Knox, “The towns are going into this with our eyes open. We think we still have a great case to be made, the best case really, for a line up here. But it is new. It is an alternative type of funding. We will need to give it a lot of scrutiny.”
Carol says the MTC is planning to present this month and is hoping for at least general approval at the MTC’s July meeting.
North Corridor Expre$$
Projected funding sources for the North Corridor commuter rail system. Total cost reflects 30-mile line from Gateway Station in Charlotte to Mooresville.
Rail Line $261 million
$65 million from NCDOT
$88 million from CATS (half-cent tax)
$24 million CATS Gateway Station Fund
$18 million from Mooresville
$65 million Federal Railroad bonds
Station enhancements $97 million
All funding would come from TIF bonds or instruments"
*****
So $97 Million from TIFs.
So most will come, by CATS on proposal, from TIF.
This is because CATS will claim the growth in the area occurs because of the rail construction.
As if the area needed a boost in that direction. They can't handle the growth already occurring. So with TIFs in place, property taxes will have to increase in order to maintain services. In fact they will increase anyway as Charlotte and the BOCC have proved - growth causes higher tax rates.
So Ken Rogers is correct. Danimal is trying to mislead.
For Kool-aid drinkers:
FYI
Tonight (Saturday) on the Discovery channel was a show about machine control and cars. One of the last things said was the technology was 5yrs from commercial use (regular cars).
Might try watching that channel instead of Sponge Bob and maybe get out of your little shell.
Thad
Also, at the numbers presented, $100,000,000 in bond debt will cost Huntersville, Davidson and Cornelius a combined $7,000,000 per year for 25 years. That is 25% of their current tax burden.
Removing this amount of taxes from their town's budgets, as growth occurs, will require decreases in service levels or increases in taxes or both.
Danimal, please explain that away.
Lewis,
As was shown by Danimal's post on the comment section in yesterday's article about the investigation of our subject report, he seems to have begun the process of sinking into progressive psychosis. I wouldn't expect too much more rational conversation from him on this subject.
According to that post, people who quesion this report or trains are now "Nazi thugs" and "right wing goons" who actually want to "keep this city in the dark ages."
Please tell me if I misquoted you Danimal?
Yeah Rick, I said it. So what? I'll take 'progressive psychosis' over any 'right wing rabies' all of you like to spew. Since you and Lewis are so bound and determined to have the last word on everything and provoking anyone else who thinks unlike yourselves, I'll call it as I see it. I'll also say this again, if you hate growth, taxes, public transportation, and people unlike your WASPy selves, MOVE! This is not your father's midsize southern hick town anymore. Get over it, things are changing around here.
Danimal
Danimal...
Please tell me what the voters in 1998 approved:
1. 1/2 cent transit tax for a comprehensive transit plan
OR
2. A 1/2 cent transit tax and limitless property tax increases for a comprehensive transit plan
OR
3. A 1/2 cent transit tax and pay at any cost, no matter how exorbinant, costly, heavy debt creating, comprehensive transit plan funded with any and all available tax revenues.
I'm pretty sure option #1 was approved. We are now at option 2 and rapidly approaching option 3.
Shouldn't voters get a chance to determine if that is OK with them? Why is that such a problem? If Char-Meck is so progressive and willing to accept tax increases, as you claim, then a win is assured....right?
"If Char-Meck is so progressive and willing to accept tax increases, as you claim, then a win is assured....right? "
That is correct. :)
Danimal
For the progressives on this blog, would you please tell me what the maximum tax rate should be.
Is it 100% or something less?
Actually....its 110%. You actually owe Charlotte an extra 10% for the privilege of living in a "progressive" city that is trying to achieve "world class status". Hold on to your wallet because you can bet your mortgage that LTR will tax this Char-Meck dry over the next few years.
I find it ironic...its painfully evident that LTR is in a complete and utter financial mess and the "progressives" berate you because you question it.
CATS completely bungled it. First they spent 60-65% on bus transit and now, gasp, find themselves in a hole to fund the trains. Brilliant...and we want to give these clowns more money? Sometimes you have to stop when you're ahead.
Danimal...
64,000 people seem to think a vote is a good idea. We should let the people, who voted for a plan with certain parameters, re-vote when the financial plan has completely changed (1/2 sales tax + Increased Property Taxes). It's the fair and honest thing to do.
If the repeal fails as you predict, I will shut-up and pay my increased property taxes. I'm going to try to make this area a better place for everyone and I believe that is through fiscal discipline.
However, I think a real eye opening message will be delivered in November.
Bring it on.
Your eyes will be opened indeed.
As we argue back and forth here, the money in town is preparing a propaganda campaign for school bonds and to maintain the transit 1/2 percent sales tax.
Those who support transit will include the chamber of commerce and their associates. The money for the campaign will flow like cheap wine and free beer. Why? Because those donating have a vested interest in government spending on capital items.
Jay Morrison is a anomaly. His gain, if the transit tax is eliminated, is miniscule. Unlike the money donors who support such programs, he expects no Return On Investment. The construction and lending industries do expect a return on their donations.
So we always see huge coffers filled to overflowing FOR these propaganda campaigns, and little money on the other side.
Yet the other side sometimes wins, because the people are not always fooled, and are sometimes bitter at the abuse heaped on them they feel powerless to stop.
Lewis
well first id like to say theres only one person i think out there that could play lord voldermort in the movies and that would be bill nighy, the man who played davy jones in the pirates movies, also what really bothers me is voldemort looks to human in the movies sure he has slits as nostrils but where are the red eyes and scaley skin like a snake him not having red eyes in the movies and no slit like pupils really really really really irks the crizap out of me, also dumbledore is dead and snape is evil to the bone, i think people are dreaming if they think he is not and im hoping hagrid of all people will get a hold of him in book 7 b/c i dont think anyone loved dumbledore, knew him better or wanted to protect him more then one rubeus hagrid.
Who are you kidding lewis? Jay Morrison used this little stunt to get him name recognition for the upcoming school board race. He;s getting something out of it.
It is hard to imagine an expenditure of the sort he made being returned in the form of more expenditures in running for public office, even if he wins.
My point is a donation from an officer or owner of a company which will likely reap business from the success of the bonds or rail construction is a ROI. Spending money such as Jay Morrison did, is not in the same arena. He may reap a reward, but, as you suggest, it is subjective, not measurable.
Lewis
Lewis
Regarding this:" love how the right thinks we should have more CEO's in government positions so they can run things 'like a business', only to turn when those CEO's don't advocate the way they like.
You right wingers distort things more than anyone I know. It just makes me laugh at what extent you will go to keep this city in the backwoods."
THere are almost too many flawed assumptions there to deal with. Start with this: I wrote the post to which you responded and I can't imagine anyone referring to me as a "right winger". It is not liberal in the classic sense to support everyone who might be characterized as progressive even when they don't merit support. There is nothing "right wing" about being willing to see wrong coming form one's own side and being able to acknowlege that. In fact as a life long liberal I'm really getting tired of weak, cowardly folks on my side fo the fence who fear admitting that all liberals are not perfect. That's closer to being brain dead, than to being left or right.
I'm a thoughtful liberal, and it takes nothing more than than to see that the study done at the behest of the Chamber has some seriousl flaws AND that it was used in a way that is intellectually dishonest. I frankly don't care if you're liberla, conservative or apathetic: if you don't understand that part of being a serious adult in a discussion is being honest, you probably are not a serious adult.
Now then, the problem with persons in positions such as that held by Rash acting as advocates is really quite simple and strightforward: it is dishonest to compromise the intellectual integrity of a university by making it an adjunct of the good old boys network, wile posing as a place of unbiased, neutral inquiry. In Dennis' case, it is beyond clear that he serves an area in which he does not have the credentials, but does have lots of contacts within the corporate power structure. That's not education or research related, that's PR related.
Danimal,
Care to comment on this morning's article in the Observer?
Now it becomes a little more clear why Mary chose to go off on a Harry Potter tangent at the time she did. The timing of all this bad news from her very own paper might be a little embarrassing.
This article shows that the original poll referred to in the article was also biased. At the time, the exact survey questions were not released. What this article says is that the survey respondents’ opinions were swayed using data from a suspect report. It would be interesting to know what the survey showed on the questions before this suspect report was used to sway the opinions of people.
At least now we know why the detailed survey results were not released. They would have exposed this story earlier.
Rick, I'm disappointed. I thought you were going to show how the UNCC study was biased, or how the Chamber was financially connected to the study, or anything else that would suggest an actual scandal.
Turns out all we learned is that UNCC let the Chamber use some data to form poll questions. Doesn't sound like much of a criticism to me.
From today's article:
On March 26, Rash e-mailed Dubois saying it was important to get data from the study quickly. "We need some of the research data in order to craft the attitude survey and then to begin the 2 1/2 (to) 3 weeks of telephoning for the surveys ASAP. We need this attitude survey to mount an effective PR campaign."
So the UNCC research department is now doing research to help Chamber PR campaigns?
That is what I learned.
That is research for a university?
I'm impressed.
Worth noting here that the attitude survey was commissioned by the Chamber, so when Rash is saying "We" need to get the data in order to craft the survey and "we need this attitude survey" in order that WE can "mount an effective PR campaign.", that "WE" is the Charlotte Chamber of Commerce.
There's no problem there but for one thing: Dennis Rash is not on the staff at the Chamber. He holds a position at UNCC. And he was communicating with the Pres of UNCC.
About what "we" need.
When high level players at UNCC, the head of the Charlotte Chamber of Commerce and a few elected officials get together to use the resources of UNCC to influence an election, there is OBVIOUSLY the connection that Mary denied. And when the context of their communicaitn is essentially that UNCC is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Charlotte Chamber of Commerce, there is certainly the appearance of a rather significant problem.
So the Chamber is not allowed to use data from UNCC studies to frame its opinion polls?
It seems that the real issue here is simply that anti-railers are desperate for a bone to chew on. Still no indication that anything inappropriate was done, just a lot of claptrap about UNCC not being up front to begin with.
You don't get it: the Chamber can use data from anywhere it wants, but the fellow making those statements is not a chambrer staffer, he's Dennis Rash of UNCC.
Read that carefully: a UNCC staffer involved in preparing the study is speaking not just for, AS the Chamber of Commerce. He isn't telling the DuBois what "they" need: he is saying "WE" -we the Chamber need this. The only alternative interpretation possible is "we" -UNCC need this for the attitude survey and to mount an effective PR campaign.
If that were a represnentative of the Chamber it wouldn't be a problem. But for a UNCC official it presents the two obvious problems: academic independence, and inappropriate advocacy to influence the outcome of an election by a publically funded institution.
Rash did not produce the study, Edd Hauser did. Rash's use of the study DATA is irrelevant to the legitimacy of the study itself.
Maybe there is an ethical issue involved in Rash's conflict of interest, but it doesn't affect whether the study should be accepted as valid.
First of all, pay attention othe genesis of this argument: that Mary referred to those who thought the Chamebr was "somehow connected to the study" were "smoking something".
Dennis Rash's e-mail makes it abundantly clea rthat indeed the Chambrer was involved. Rash is not a staffer of the Chamber. In reality his "WE" is the institute of which Edd Hauser id the director and he is the exec in residence.
That he isn't the author if the study is immaterial, since he was obviously involved in it from it's inception.
(Note, by the way, that Rash did not need to wait for the study to be done to know that the results would be useful to mount an effective PR campaign. That suggests that everyone knew that they were going to produce a document favorable to CATS.)
It is really just foolish to attempt to make this appear as though it is anything other than what their own words clearly indicate that it was: an effort at advocacy.
One last thing: whether the results are accurate or inaccurate is not at issue in whether academic research is valid and useful. Rather it is that it is one without introduing bias and is clearly free of advocacy for a given position. The consumer of the research is not expected to pre-judge the results -that's what the reserch is for in the first place- but must be able to assess whether the research was independent of the influence of advocates for one or anther position.
This study very clearly was NOT independent of such influence, and therefore may be dismissed as not useful on it's face. That does not mean it may not be right, but rather that there is no way to KNOW that it is and there is reason to suspect that it may not be. It is the sort of thing that any serious academic would discard as useless.
Just a comment on the "report" before this post is gone for another Potter Post:
If I remember, the report said the lightrail here would be just as costly/wasteful of taxpayer money as in most other places with LRT.
This is the report proponents of LRT want to defend?
Thad
One last thing: whether the results are accurate or inaccurate is not at issue in whether academic research is valid and useful. Rather it is that it is one without introduing bias and is clearly free of advocacy for a given position.
All those words and it's still clear that you have not read the report. Please find a copy and READ it, and point out exactly where "bias" or "advocacy" occurs.
Thad's post below, though obviously skewed to an Anti perspective (he doesn't seem to be capable of intellectual balance) makes a fair point: the report doesn't advocate for LRT at all. It simply gives a brief survey of the facts and points out the deficiencies of the project along with its benefits. At no point does it make the sort of unacademic conclusions that you describe above.
If you are going to toss out this single report because you don't like UNC administrators, then you also need to throw away every other transit-based study they've conducted, including the anti-rail reports published by Hartgen over the years.
Of course I've read it. that's why I know that (1)It contains factual errors that alter the results, (2)The methodology is horridly flawed in that it makes comparisons of raw data among projects of very different nature and scope, and rather than norming that data, admits that they are very different projects but submits that it DOESN'T MATTER.
And more to the point (3) the communication among the DuBois, Hauser, Rash, Morgan and Tober make it abundantly clear (A)that there was no effort to eliminate bias, (B)Everyone understood that the result was intended to serve the Chamber's PR campaign.
If you choose to take it seriously as anything OTHER than advocacy, you either have not yourself read the study, do not understand the nature of academic research, or are engaging in the willing suspension of critical thinking.
A study that is intended to be a part of a PR campaign before the research has begun is fairly clearly no unbiased. If you don't get that, Let me commend to your attention some HArry Potter books. They're VERY popular with those seeking to avoid dealing with the disaster of the released e-mails, the investigation and the involvement now of the Attorney General's office.
The second to last anon obviously can't or won't go back and read the critiques pointing to the study's bias from back when Mary originally posted the report.
Here are some of them...
TABLE 7 - The only two systems that have lower rail VRM than bus VRM are Atlanta and DC. Not an apples to apples comparison with LRT cities. Why were they included? The obvious reason they were thrown in there by the researchers would be to have at least a couple of examples where rail appears better than buses. Leave them out and none of the light rail systems are better than buses.
This table also curiously leaves out the total number of people served by the bus systems and train systems in these LRT cities. Why? That's because many more people use the bus than the trains.
TABLE 8 - Yes, Charlotte looks good to these cities. However it is again, not an apples to apples comparison. Charlotte's system is several times the size of the compared cities'. These other cities do not have the economies of scale that Charlotte should have when it comes to operating costs. When looked at that way, the fact that Charlotte is not near the top is disappointing.
More inconsistencies and missing information in the report done by our scholars. Some of this stuff is so obvious, it makes me wonder about using that term.
Why do they forecast the expected income from the 1/2 cent sales tax for several years out, but they can't, don't, or won't tell us the percentage that will be going to the buses rather than rail in those same years. They only say that it is 65% now. My guess is that's because the percentage will begin dropping after next year as more goes down the rail sink hole. Once the North line starts getting built with no Federal funding starting in 2009 those percentages will begin to shift. They also hide this fact in the mixing of capital cost numbers for Bus and rail. Obviously the number of buses being bought by CATS is not going to continue on the same pace in the years ahead as it has in the recent past. This money will be shifted to the capital costs and associated debt service of South Blvd and any new rail lines.
Next, why would scholars assume that all of the uptown development should be considered TOD? Many, if not, all of the towers within 277 would have been built anyway. The South Blvd development definitely should count towards rail, but the Uptown towers are questionable at best. The report sited by the “scholars” took numbers directly from a CharMeck Planning Dept presentation – hardly unbiased scholarly research. They are the biggest rail-at-all-costs cheerleaders around. I’ll site the following major developments as validation that development in Charlotte occurs without rail. Griffith Lakes, Bryton, and the Gandy developments along the proposed North Corridor and Old Statesville Rd have all said they will be going forward even if the transit tax is repealed and the North Corridor line is never built. Sure, the development will change somewhat and be less dense, but it will move forward."
Combine those with the factual errors such as the error in Table 10 where Charlotte's original cost per mile estimate is the same as the current cost per mile actual and you have some very sloppy "academic" research.
A bit off the topic of this thread, but Joel Kotkin has a new piece on his web site - interesting as usual - and Charlotte got a few mentions. What's most interesting is where he sees cities like Charlotte fitting into the urban picture. As I've speculated previously, he maintains that we more or less serve as a refuge from truly world-class cities (and their costs) like NYC and SF.
http://www.joelkotkin.com/Urban_Affairs/CNNMoney%20Where%20We%20Will%20Live.htm
It's not going to last long if we don't get a grip on tax increases and build-at-any-cost transit. Then we will be like those "World Class" cities...wondering why the growth is 95% in adjacent counties and South Carolina border counties. Those remaining here will be crushed with the tax burden while non-residents commute to use "World Class" thingies and toys.
Cato,
Thanks for posting that article.
It basically refutes just about every urbanist topic posted on this forum.
I particularly like the part about arts and amenities following good jobs and not the other way around.
Uh... no, it actually doesn't refute much of anything.
Just a few examples of bad logic/faulty use of stats in the article:
As they get older, according to research by my colleagues at the Praxis Strategy Group, they tend to leave the hip urban areas of New York City, Los Angeles, Boston and San Francisco for the suburbs or for less glamorous but more affordable markets such as Phoenix, Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas and Houston and their suburbs.
Kotkin never directly backs this statement up, so it's hard to tell exactly what "research" he's referring to. But I'm assuming that this is a reference to the fact that older people are consistently moving to the suburbs rather than the inner city. What Kotkin's not addressing is the fact that generationally, current 20-somethings are more likely to want to move to the city than their parents were at the same age. So the number of older people moving inward will rise as time passes; the change in generational values will be reflected more and more with each passing year.
Despite all you've heard..., job growth ...has been weaker in these urban cores than in the sunbelt
Kotkin's shifts his line of argument in this paragraph, and never really explains why he implies that the sunbelt's job growth proves that people favor suburbs. In fact, he pretty convincingly proves that Houston's growth is primarily attributed to a boom in the energy and health-related industries. Likewise, if the steel industry were to boom tomorrow, Pittsburgh would undoubtedly have a renaissance. But the industrial sector has shrunk for decades, which is the real reason for the economic shift in favor of the sunbelt cities. None of this has anything to do with suburbs; it's a pretty thin argument indeed to suggest that any of it supports Kotkin's thesis.
Equally important, prices have risen far more quickly than income in cities such as New York, Miami and San Francisco.
This is an important statistic to note. Inflation in housing prices has to be avoided in order to keep a city's economy healthy. Bravo to Kotkin for pointing it out, but again this does not tell us anything about whether people increasingly prefer to live in hip urban areas. It just tells us that many can no longer afford to do so in cities with high inflation. I want to point out that he mentions Miami, a predominantly suburban city, as an example of this trend.
His next paragraph is a solid point, though.
Espresso and art follow good jobs, not the other way around.
Art may follow jobs, but employees often follow art. Again, all the data shows that people under 20 tend to choose their homes based on location, whereas at the same age their parents chose based on employment opportunity. So if you are a city that wants to recruit tomorrow's industry leaders, you'd better have a strong, interesting urban area to lure them with. Otherwise they may pass you by for a less thriving, but more culturally engaging place.
Since 2000, more than 95% of greater Portland's population growth, notes demographer Wendell Cox, took place outside city limits.
This is almost painfully poor logic. Portland has put some pretty strong limits on building within the city. Of course most of their growth has occurred outside the city limits!
Yet a recent Temple University study found that nearby suburbanites were considerably more likely than city dwellers to see their neighborhood as "home."
Again, this only makes sense if you ignore context. Philadelphia's suburbs are some of the oldest and densest in the nation; it's not particularly surprising that residents of close-knit, well-established suburbs that resemble the inner portions of a sunbelt city would have a stronger sense of establishment than those in an urban core that has undergone dramatic changes every generation since WWII. If Philadelphia were just like Tampa, his argument here would be valid. But anyone that knows Philly can see that it really doesn't support his argument very strongly.
But the data spell out that most people over 30 probably want something even less urban: a bit less edgy and a lot less crowded, more family-friendly and usually more affordable as well.
Note that this summary sentence implies that because cities like NYC and San Francisco have few children and are very expensive, "urban" by definition must mean the opposite of family-friendly and affordable. The logic is obviously pretty shaky; if a sunbelt's inner neighborhoods were developed to be more family-friendly and affordable than San Francisco, then there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't have strong growth just like any other such place.
So really, all we can take away from this article is that places which are overly expensive and offer few opportunities are not going to show much population growth. But the idea that people prefer not to live in hip urban areas just does not follow.
"employees follow art".
Huh? Never heard that one before. Employees follow jobs! Thay are after all called employees, not art lovers who happen to have a job.
Portland has put some pretty strong limits on building within the city. Of course most of their growth has occurred outside the city limits!
So which way do you want it? Ususally people say Portland is great because of their growth limits, but now you conveniently say they are the cause for people choosing to not live there. What it really shows is that when you try to control people they will choose to live somewhere else. (Similar to trying to cram people into predefined transit corridors by using zoning. Sound familiar?)
Also, how do you explain that Charlotte doesn't have the types of limits that Portland does, but still the vast number of new residents who move to the region, move to suburbs anyway.
"if a sunbelt's inner neighborhoods were developed to be more family-friendly and affordable than San Francisco, then there is no reason to believe that it wouldn't have strong growth just like any other such place."
So Charlotte is bucking that trend by building thousands of extremely expensive condo units in Center City?
The point of this article is that a majority of people move to nice cities like charlotte because of cheaper suburan lifestyles as long as there are good jobs. They need a minimum of cultural amenities - which Charlotte has - but they prefer to live away from the urban core. No matter how fast center city grows, it will not change the reality that most newcomers choose not to live there.
Huh? Never heard that one before. Employees follow jobs! Thay are after all called employees, not art lovers who happen to have a job.
As I mentioned several times in the previous post, it is common knowledge in HR/staffing circles that the 40/younger generations are increasingly putting a priority on "sense of place" and culture in making relocation decisions. This will continue to play out in the future, probably as a result of the nation's post-WWII process of maturity and sophistication. Of course, any city needs a healthy economy to grow; but it's not just about job vacancies anymore. All other things equal, a young person is likely to choose a vibrant city over an economically successful one. Even the data referenced (but not cited) in the article supports that trend.
If Charlotte wants to compete for bright young people to lead the city into the next few decades, it needs to continue to develop cultural amenities. Otherwise it risks "brain drain" a la Detroit.
Ususally people say Portland is great because of their growth limits, but now you conveniently say they are the cause for people choosing to not live there.
Come on now, you are either missing the point or just playing dumb. It's not hard to understand that if a city puts restrictions on growth, its growth will occur outside city limits. It's just common sense.
That does not in any way support the assertion that people "choose" to live in the suburbs.
Also, how do you explain that Charlotte doesn't have the types of limits that Portland does, but still the vast number of new residents who move to the region, move to suburbs anyway.
Once again, the argument is being made out-of-context. Charlotte may not have "limits" per se on urban growth, but it has a miniscule stock of middle-class housing at its center. Naturally you are not going to see a lot of people moving to a place where there are no empty residences.
Fortunately the economic data indicates that the "Next Big Thing" will be apartment buildings in the center city (by pure force of supply & demand), but we are going to have to wait until the condo craze passes for developers to switch their marketing strategies. When that happens, hopefully we will see some relief for average-income families wanting to live in the center city.
But the key thing to bear in mind once again is that large numbers of people are choosing to move into the city, which is why there is virtually no vacancy at all in the 28202 zip code. It's extremely difficult to find a place to live uptown, because vacancies are filled almost immediately in most circumstances.
So Charlotte is bucking that trend by building thousands of extremely expensive condo units in Center City?
If you are saying we need more affordable center-city housing, I completely agree. But "Charlotte" is not building condos, developers are. It is perfectly possible to build middle-class housing in and near uptown, but right now there is a lot of money to be made on executive-types (who can live wherever they want) who are choosing the center city over the suburbs. Once that market is saturated they will start to aim at less-affluent demographics, who have shown an equal amount of desire to live in the center of things.
The point of this article is that a majority of people move to nice cities like charlotte because of cheaper suburan lifestyles as long as there are good jobs.
Once again there is this unnatural conflation of "suburban" with "cheap". There is no reason, with smart zoning and building ordinances, that Charlotte can't have middle-class housing in the center of the city.
What's more, once the city densifies to the point where people have the choice to live without a car, their abibility to choose to live uptown will be better facilitated. According to the link below, it costs about $600/month to own an average-sized sedan (not counting finance charges). That's $7,200 per year, a good chunk of change that can be added to the base cost of living in the suburbs. Not "cheap" at all by my definition.
http://www.bikesatwork.com/carfree/cost-of-car-ownership.html
Bottom line: Everyone is going to choose where to live based on individual values. And increasingly, the values in this nation are turned back toward urban districts as a vital part of a thriving city. It would be foolish in the extreme to neglect the center city and allow it to become the cultural wasteland it was 20 years ago. If we want a well-balanced, healthy metropolis we are going to have to pay due attention to the continued growth and development of the urban hub.
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just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
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milton twins -
more gonzo -
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my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
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my sisters hot friend -
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all internal -
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bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
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college fuckfest -
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housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
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my naughty latin maid -
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my sisters hot friend -
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she got pimped -
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so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
backseat bangers -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
bang boat -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
black cocks white sluts -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
boobs exam scam -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
bubble butts galore -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
college wild parties -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
couples seduce teens -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
first time swallows -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
first time swallows -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
gay blind date sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
gay college sex parties -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first anal sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first big cock -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first dp -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first lesbian sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first facial -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first gay sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first huge cock -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
housewife bangers -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
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simpson twins -
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sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
insane cock brothas -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
just facials -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
milf seeker -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
porn stud search -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
she got pimped -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
squirt hunter -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
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