Wednesday, February 28, 2007

New Urbanism or sell-out?

The Charlotte region gets a lot of positive national attention for its examples of New Urban-style development: Vermillion, Fort Mill’s Baxter, Birkdale Village, Concord’s Afton Village and the municipal ordinances of places such as Davidson, Belmont, Huntersville, etc. But if you live here you’re more likely to hear from people who are either convinced New Urbanism is socialism in disguise and means we’ll all be rounded up somehow and forced to live in high-rise tenements, or they’re confused by developers who advertise typical suburban subdivisions as New Urbanism because they’ve thrown in sidewalks and front porches.


Reality is more complex. Today’s Next Big Thing article by Doug Smith about Vermillion is one example. Is it a sell-out of New Urban principles that developer Nate Bowman is building or planning nearly 250 single-family homes that will exceed 4,000 square feet and sell in the high $400,000s?


I suspect plenty of developers who’ve gotten rich with a formula of conventional suburban subdivisions will point and say, “Told you so. New Urbanism doesn’t sell.” And plenty of New Urban zealots will want to kick Bowman out of the New Urbanist club and will point out how environmentally unsound it is to build gigantic houses on single-family lots out in the suburbs.


Reality? The whole point of New Urbanism is to mix it up. No monocultures, of housing type or income. That means you want houses of different sizes at different price points. You also want apartments and townhouses, garage apartments, carriage houses. And you want stores, offices and as many other uses as you can get to co-exist comfortably with one another. A neighborhood of nothing but townhouses, even if they look just like Beacon Hill, is not New Urbanist.


Do I, personally, think most people need 4,000-square-foot houses? No way. I, personally, think that unless you have five or six kids, you’re wasting materials and energy and you should be ashamed of yourself for being that profligate. (Hypocrisy disclosure: If I won the lottery there is a reasonable chance I'd get a mansion-esque place. Biltmore maybe? Or maybe not. I don't like dealing with window treatments.)


Although it happens that pedestrian-friendly neighborhoods are a lot more energy efficient, the underlying point of New Urbanism is neighborhood design, not energy-efficiency or having to meet all of my particular pet peeves – or yours, or anyone’s.


The new phase of Vermillion will also include more townhomes and three-level dwellings, and Bowman is planning to add more retail. It’s within walking distance of a planned transit stop and the core of old, downtown Huntersville. Sounds to me as if it passes the test.


And as to whether the market wants only suburban subdivisions? Get hold of today’s newspaper and notice all the ads around Smith’s piece on pages 4D and 5D. “Introducing Southborough, a new urban village,” “New condos in Davidson’s South Main Arts District,” “Condo Flats As Cool As the Neighborhood Around them.” A lot of developers seem to believe there’s a market for urbanism, too. Here's the big Vermillion plan that ran in today's paper, but isn't online:

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

OK Mary, here's where you lose your credibility all the time. Being judgemental of people who choose to live in, and pay for 4000 sq. ft. homes, does not help you in any argument. In general, I prefer walkable, compact, diverse communities where you don't need to jump in the car 100% of the time to accomplish anything. That said, I also support allowing the option for the many who choose to live in a spread out and open subdivision. If I'm ever in the position to buy a $300k or more home, I would probably opt for extra square footage in the burbs over a 600 sq. ft. condo. More bang for your buck. And this is coming from one of you more 'liberal' posters. Encouraging 'new urbanist' designs in certain parts of town is valid and makes sense. Scoffing at and micromanaging developers though when they don't follow your narrow utopian dream is not.

Danimal

Anonymous said...

To each his own.
I spent my $250k on a 750 square footer in a highrise. That's just me. I love to be able to walk everywhere and I like the feel of being in a downtown area.
I also use to live in Ballantyne in a 3,900 square footer. It was nice as well. But after awhile the commute and sitting in traffic near the mall just got to me.
I decided to make the switch and am glad for it every single day.
The only time I ever go out that way is to go to visit family. I have to say I dread it. It's a nightmare.
If Charlotte keeps growing as it has been we are going to see L.A. style traffic due to our limitted lanes on the highway. People are going to have to accept light rail as an option, move closer to town or be content with sitting in a giant parking lot.
Me personally, I rather spend my off hours at the pub, reading a book, eating at a fine restaurant or going for a walk or bike. Anything is better than I77 and I485.
But like I said, too each his/her own.

Anonymous said...

Bang for Buck doesn't always mean more square footage or a fancier car.
Bang for Buck can also mean a better quality of life or a better lifestyle.
Ease of livability and convenience is huge for a lot of people these days. Some people rather spend their free time enjoying life as soon as the work wistle blows rather than spending hours to "drive" to their life.

Anonymous said...

Suburban, new urban, old urban?, condos etc. The names we have for areas we choose to live.

As the country becomes more heavily populated and our need for personal yard space is esthetic only, many people will choose to live without. They bustle along in close proximity minding their own business until something happens to disturb them. Then they show a sudden burst of energy to repair the breach and slowly go back to the normal day to day.

An excellent way to live a civilized life, one which ants, bees and other social insects have mastered. The benefits are enormous as delineated elsewhere.

Then having no outdoor space of their own some of them demand others pay for large parks, open space, state and national forests etc. It would be better if they would join together and buy their own, but.....

For myself I have bought 25+/- acres on both sides of a creek in Gaston County where we are going to put a large home.

The occasional commute to Charlotte
will be offset by trees, flowers, deer, doves, coyotes, quail, ground hogs, grandchildren, the beauty and sound of waterfalls and the whistle of wind in the pine forests.

Those of you who wish, can have the sound and smell of automobiles, road construction, loud rap, the screech of sirens, as you attend the numerous and excellent bars and restaurants.

As Mary said, to each his own, and while I didn't win a lottery, I've enjoyed the wage differential a growing economy brings.

Wasteful???? Hardly! In building the house I provided jobs for numerous people. What else should one do with the money? Donate it to? Spend it on? When the word wasteful is used, think of what alternatives there are and it becomes a rhetorical question.

Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...

I doubt they will hear any sirens, rap or smell automobiles at 30 to 50 stories up.

Anonymous said...

Hey Lewis,
Should others have to pay for your grandchildrens education ?
I sure hope you have them enrolled in a private school. Otherwise you are tapping into my large parks, open space, state and national forests etc.
You see my wife and I and have chosen not to have children. So should I not pay my share to put everyone elses kids through school ?
I take transit, should I also not have to pay for any highway projects ?
I don't attend any church either. Maybe I don't feel it's right that they are tax exempt.

It goes both ways Lewis.

.........Gaston, pleEEEEase Lweis, please. That's not living at all.

Anonymous said...

If they have 40,000 signatures, I doubt light rail has a future in this county.

Anonymous said...

That's not even 5% of the county population.
Big Whoop !
I bet you that 4% of that 5% are from people on the outskirts of the county.
Ask people that actually live in Charlotte proper and you will find plenty of support.

Anonymous said...

I live in Dilworth very close to East Boulevard and walk for many of my needs. I could never picture myself in the suburbs. It's simply my choice and lifestyle. Everyone's situation is different and those with families often find that suburbs make much more sense economically and educationally. There is no "right" or "wrong".

Anonymous said...

They only need 48,000 signatures to force the issue on the ballot to repeal the light rail sales tax.

That tax passed with 58% to 42% in 1998. And there was no real opposition back then. With all of the cost overruns and bad press for CMS, repeal of the light rail sales tax is a real possibility.

Don't be surprised if it happens.

Anonymous said...

Yes it very well could happen. All I'm saying is just because 4% of a county is in favor of something doesn't mean it's the majority.
I haven't spoken to one person inside Charlotte city limits that thinks the train is a bad idea.
I think they should just add a 1% transportation tax on all goods/services inside Charlotte city limits. Just like other cities do.
Then just build the rail within the city limits. If the county people don't want to use the rail and want to repeal the tax then let them keep their money and sit in traffic. But if they want to come into our city and enjoy themselves they can contribute to the higher sales tax while they are here as well.
We need to separate the city and the county in this region of the country if we are ever going to move forward in Charlotte.
The two are just too different.

Anonymous said...

If 40,000 people have signed a petition that just started a few weeks ago, then the percentage in support of it is MUCH higher than 4%. The repeal vote could easily exceed 50% for the county. Nobody should assume that light rail is beloved by the majority. Many people feel that we are spending too much money on light rail.

Whether you agree or not is fine. But it should be acknowledged that light rail is not really a transit solution.

Anonymous said...

Uh, how did light rail and the repeal petition get on this thread. It is way off topic. Some of you folks just kill me.

Anonymous said...

"Whether you agree or not is fine. But it should be acknowledged that light rail is not really a transit solution."

Why should it be acknowledged ? Because you say it should ?
Okay so according to you I I guess I have to acknowledge it being right, even if I believe it wrong.
I don't think so. That's not how it works with me.
I am guessing that's not how it works with most.

Where do you get off saying I can agree or disagree but "I have to acknowlege" ???
You absolutely kill me.
The balls of you.

Light rail works in plenty of cities and can work here as well. Cleaner, faster, no traffic issues as with a bus or BRT. You can find just as many if not more reasons on plenty of website as to why BRT is not as good as light rail.

As far as I know that silly little petition has been around for a long time. I believe I first saw the website 5 or 6 months ago.

You need to redo the math as well. We have aprox. 900,000 in Meck now and 40,000 of that is aprox. 4.5% of the population.

There's no arguing with arrogance.
So I am signing off.
ENJOY

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2:28 PM

Exactly.

User fees are the way to go.
Tolls for roads.
No public education.
No public parks.
etc.

Churches certainly shouldn't be tax exempt.

No children.
Darwinism at it's best.
Obviously a dying genetic line.

Lewis

Anonymous said...

Very good blog and on target with the issue – also, I think Doug's article was great. It will do much more to educate folks on the broader parameters of new urbanism's ability to reach a full range of housing choices.

Yesterday I had a conversation with a very affluent Charlotte real estate broker. I explained to her the whole issue of how Charlotte perceived New Urbanism as just starter housing and she immediately said she didn’t think that was the case and without pausing then said isn’t it just that new urbanism houses aren’t built very well? Basically she was in one breath dissing new urbanism as builder quality housing. I found out later she lives in a custom-designed south Charlotte mcmansion. She had never heard of any of the very exclusive high-end custom-designed New Urbanism communities in the Carolina Low Country i.e. I’on http://www.ionvillage.com/ or Habersham http://www.habershamsc.com/ even though she said she travels to those areas of the low country all the time showing property. She is the kind of person that is very well connected, intelligent, and could make a big difference in the local development industry if more aware that better options are out there.

Anonymous said...

Would the people talking about light rail PLEASE find an appropriate forum for that subject? This blog is quickly being ruined by the constant bickering over that one subject. I am almost at the point of ignoring this blog altogether, because EVERY thread is about the same thing.

STOP MAKING OUR FORUM YOUR POLITICAL SOAPBOX.

Anonymous said...

11 PM news reported that they have 42,000 signatures and only need 6,000 more to put the sales tax repeal on the ballot.

This is gonna hurt.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:05 PM writes about quality of buildings. This is an issue which can only be addressed by the home purchaser, but is reflective of our impatient desires related to consumption.

The demand is for bigger and cheaper, whether town houses, suburban, apartments or other.

In competiting for the market, building only to code is the cheapest way to build, yet the results can be seen in every older section in downtown. Dilworth is all wood, as is Cherry etc. But to build houses solidly, so they last, as in many of the houses in Myers Park etc, is much more expensive per foot, so the same money buys a smaller house.

The bigger is better mindset won't allow that purchase.

So - New Urban designs will suffer the same problem, unless the purchasers make demands on the builders for better buildings. Additionally, in the long run this is more enviornmentally sane.

Don't forget to sign the train repeal petition!

Rick said...

I didn't do it this time.

fed up said...

Lewis,
While you're at it let's remove all the product warning labels so we can thin the herd of stupid people.

My impression of New Urbanism, from the few articles I've read and Mary's links, is that this "movement" seems to think they know best how people should live and want to shoehorn people into their desired living mode.
Reminds me that the Constructivists ( think that's right ) thought they could design housing with straight lines to bring order to peoples' lives. Total b.s. which completely forgets human nature.

To each his own is right...where you choose to live is exactly ( in most cases ) the best place for you to live.

However, with the case of Birkdale, it is so overcrowded. The shopping district with the theater should have been designed as walking only with adjacent parking deck. Only emergency vehicles, handicapped and supply trucks allowed access.

I, personally, prefer a smaller house with more yard. Gardening, playing outdoors with our child, entertaining friends in the privacy of our back deck.

Uncle Dennis said...

New Urbanism is a definition of a trend that has started, not a new idea that needs to be followed.

People have begun to reverse the trend of leaving the core city that started in the late 60's. If you look at the places they were living and where new housing was being developed, it was easy to see the reason why.

As people sought to lessen their dependance on a car for everything, living close in became a reasonable answer.

I am a realtor, and many times when I discuss space needs with clients, they discover that while they may have 3500 sq ft, they actually live in about 900 sq ft. Think of your own space and figure it out in your lifestyle.

Once the trend began, people put labels on it, not the other way around.

UD

Anonymous said...

You can read for yourself today in the Observer. If the 1/2 cent tax is repealed they will just get the money by raising the property tax.
Way to go Stop The Train Bozos.
So the way it stands now everyone is paying a 1/2 cent tax including renters, visitors, etc.
If it gets repealed then only property owners will pay the full cost. That's what they are saying. They will raise the tax to pay for it. And it will hit your wallet harder than the 1/2 cent since funding wont be coming from visitors, hpme owners and reners.
Just home owners.

WAY TO GO !!!!

Enjoy paying more for transit you complainers wont use.

Anonymous said...

I agree. The city will get the cash one way or another. These folks are just going to end up hurting all the home owners in the end.
In the article it states that people are being missled and harrassed at these petition drives. It's absolutely true. My wife and I get approached all the time at the post office on McDowell and they don't say a thing about transit. All they talk about is signing the petition to lower taxes.
They are a bunch of fakes and they know they don't have enough support without lying to get signatures.
Watch out for people who lie to advance a cause.
One day you may elect them president.

Anonymous said...

The article states that only about 70% of the signatures are valid. I bet when they called the people to verify and actually told them what they had signed for (transit tax repeal) that's when the 30% dropped their names.

Isn't it easier for you to just move to Mayberry ?

Anonymous said...

The people soliciting signatures are most likely hired. If so they get paid '$x' per signature. The reason there is a percentage loss is that the signatures are checked against the voter registration roles. Out of county, bad addresses etc., will cause a certain amount of loss.
The 48,000 have to be those of legally registered voters.

And those supporting repeal will not expect Michael Dickerson and company to bend the rules as they do for Vilma and company.

Lewis

Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...

If I could do one thing to improve Charlotte, I would complete the greenway project and put in a system of pedestrian/bicycle paths connecting up the various cul-de-sacs.

Anonymous said...

Just don't tell the train debaters about this place.

Anonymous said...

Webster defines urban as of a city or city life. If that is the case what is Urban about Baxter? How can New Urbanism take place in the suburbs or the cornfields or the low country? New Urbanisms works in Seattle, Portland, Denver places with buildings and high density thus Urban places. How can anything Urban, new or not, take place outside of an Urban Environment. I recently came across a New-Urban Development being planned for Hillsboro explain what is Urban about Hillsboro (its new urban cause it will have sidewalks and a coffee shop) - the term New Urbanism is as stupid as the term Smart Growth.

I’ll sign the Petition for a referendum for the half sales tax. If we have a referendum and it is passes – the anti-transit people can finally shut up. Its kind of a stupid move for them. To have a Transits Referendum and the new CMS bonds package on the ballet at them same time for a city election cycle is just dumb.

Jack said...

Anonymous above at 4:02PM is correct. There is nothing urban about a development outside urban limits. Putting in sidewalks and a coffee shop just makes it more convenient, not "Urban".

Face it, we live in a city of the New South where there never was much in the way of self-contained neighborhoods like most other big cities. To get there will take a looooong time.

I do think some of you take this "New Urban" thing like a personal attack. Its just a fancy label for developers to use to move units. Like Mary said, its not some socialist movement trying to take over our society. If you don't like it, fine. Move on. If you are against the idea, why are you reading a blog about it?

Jack

Cato said...

For the most part, I don't see anything not to like about the proposed development. With the mixed uses, it's an improvement over the standard cookie-cutter subdivision. And with the possibilities for mixed incomes and housing types in the development, many people may not feel the need to move out of the neighborhood as their family situation changes, but may upsize/downsize as necessary. As much as anything else, this continuity can be important in giving neighborhoods a sense of place. Who knows? But, the developers seem to be thinking outside the box, and it's hard not to wish them well.

I've never considered the Smart Growth/New Urbanist types to be socialists, in the true sense of the state owning the means of production. From the point of political theory, with their fondness for public-private partnerships, and their antipathy towards the private sphere generally (public parks rather than back yards, etc.), they're actually closer to being fascists. But that's too harsh as well. Most of them are really just well-intentioned busybodies.

Anonymous said...

Cato. Best comment I've heard on this blog in a long time. Keem 'em coming.

Anonymous said...

I have to disagree with Cate about the term fascist being too harsh. It is only too harsh due to association with fascistic extremes of the past. Fascism as defined by FDR from Wikipedia is: "The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."

While ownership doesn't occur in fact, it does in practice, which leads one to the term corporatism, used here as described in Wikipedia in the pejorative sense.

So while it would seem some of the advocates of deciding how we should live are busybodies, their methodology, if using government to enforce their vision, is a version of fascism combined with corporatism - corporafascism perhaps?

This was the method of the downtown arena.



Lewis

Uncle Dennis said...

Ahhh, the Arena rears its head at last! Talk about a dead horse!

It is the responsibility of our elected officials to stimulate the growth and promote the interests of this city, and region. The Arena is a tool that needed to happen to do that.

When the Bobcats field a winning team, they will fill the Arena. The Checkers produce an entertaining evening at relatively low prices (except for food). The Monster Trucks, etc also bring in plenty of folks.

I have met and talked to many people here for the CIAA tournament, and they are amazed at how great Charlotte is as a city. These are people who are coming here, spending money (which is taxed to help build our light rail line) rent cars (which will help build our new Mint Museum) and eat in our restaurants.

Development along the Caldwell / Rail line corridor is pretty rampant, Courtside, EpiCenter, The Park, etc. All these developments are adding to the tax roles, producing revenues from what were either parking lots, or government owned land not producing any tax revenue.

As expensive as the Arena was, remember that it was completed on or under budget, no small task in a time when construction costs are rising rapidly.

The referendum was a non-binding referendum, kind of like kissing you sister! It was poorly conceived as an issue, and was so closely tied to George Shinn as to be a referendum on him, and not the package. It was also designed by politicians looking to be teflon coated, so as not to have any stigma attached to them.

Let's not pretend that the Arena is not a good thing for this city.

UD

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with Uncle D.
The area is a great asset for the city. A great revenue as well as an amenity that is a must if you are to attract people to live, visit and play in your downtown area. Bottom line, it pulls in tax revenue.
I am personally at the arena about twice per month for either basketball, hockey or a concert event.
Light rail ? A must. Nothing left to say on that topic.
Lewis, I just wont waste my time typing about your comments. They simply drain my energy.
Have a good weekend everybody.

Anonymous said...

I used the arena as an example, UD and the following Anon, make the point exceptionally well. The rationalizations of how government is used to take from one group to give to another was pointed out by both.

One rationale is that increased tax revenues are a reason for government expenditures. Another is that government is in the business of stimulating growth and providing entertainment.

There seems an extremely blurry distinction between business and government.

How then shall we know the difference?

If the purpose of government to increase tax revenue?

Will we describe that as profit?

Don't we then have fascism, with ownership of the methods of production in government hands, to which position government evolved by spending on projects to produce tax revenue (income)?

Cato was too kind.

Lewis

Anonymous said...

Lewis,
It's so nice that you live in Gaston but feel the need to troll this blog all the time. Also very nice that you are not a neighbor of mine.
It is in local governments best interest to generate income, growth and revenue. It supplies cash basic services like transit, garbage collection, running the city, etc.
Please be happy, enjoy Gaston and leave the rest of the city people alone.
Your comments are rediculous since you don't live in the city or even the county for that.

Anonymous said...

“It is the responsibility of our elected officials to stimulate the growth and promote the interests of this city, and region.” – Uncle

That is actually the Chambers responsibility. The Elected Officials are elected to direct and give counsel to the City Government.

“It is in local governments best interest to generate income, growth and revenue.” – this statement is not true either. The government should allow and enable growth and revenue but the government should not be a revenue generator.

The Government should offer services that the public sector does not or cannot: water, roads, police, fire etc… it gets hairy when the government offers services that the public sector (aka capitalist/free market) should or can provide: waste management, entertainment, transportation. The Government should never be in the market of competing with the public sector.

For more on this subject I would recommend reading: Adam Smith or Thomas Jefferson.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon 8:05 AM
I troll this blog because I find the discussion entertaining. I don't live in Gaston but am moving there sometime later this year I hope. None the less I pay in excess of $10,000 per year in property taxes on my business, high for some, low for others. It will remain here, I will be a commuter on those occasions when it is necessary for me to come in.

So far as neighbors, please don't judge your neighbors by their politics.

I expect UD and I would be great neighbors, accepting the fact the other's politics are wrong, but he minds his own business, helping out when asked, sharing a beer, ice tea or coffee on occasion.

Whether or not one lives here makes no difference about the content of the message. To imply such is a bit sophomoric.

Anon 2:43 PM.

Thank you etc. Perhaps those who disagree here will take the time to educate themselves on the thoughts of the founders of this country.

As those ideas conflict with their emotional beliefs, I expect they will avoid doing so.

Best wishes anyway.

Lewis

Anonymous said...

>>The whole point of New Urbanism is to mix it up. No monocultures, of housing type or income....>>>

Because why again????

>>Do I, personally, think most people need 4,000-square-foot houses? No way. I, personally, think that unless you have five or six kids, you’re wasting materials and energy and you should be ashamed of yourself for being that profligate.>>

Shall we discuss the $500,000 GovCo spent on the 'hanging head' sculpture in the lobby of the courthouse?

Shall we bring up the $1M to be spent on 'art' to decorate light rail stations when the project is 250% over budget?

How about the 4 story glass atrium in One Wachovia that sure looks nice but must waste tons of energy to heat, meanwhile there are stickers on the entrance that say 'please use revolving doors' to save energy.

Do I personally care what Mary Newsom thinks about what size house people get to live in? No way.

New urbanism is no doubt socialism in disguise. I.e., lets try to make people (via zoning and building codes) live in ways they would not normally choose to live then try to keep a straight face when we continue to call ourselves a free country.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, as long as Mary gets to define what makes her happy.

Who care what the unwashed masses want.

Anonymous said...

>>That's not even 5% of the county population.
Big Whoop !
I bet you that 4% of that 5% are from people on the outskirts of the county.
Ask people that actually live in Charlotte proper and you will find plenty of support. >>

Great point to bring up percentages.

Do you know that statistically only 1.7 percent of the Charlotte area uses mass transit?

DO you know that a single way trip on the bus costs about $6 (per trip)?

Do you know that a one way trip on light rail will cost about $11?

Don't you really think if mass transit is a good idea, there would be privatized, profitable systems SOMEWHERE ON EARTH???

Nobody would pay to rise what it actually costs.

THis is just more of the same. People want something, and they want someone else to pay for it.

THey convince everyone it is a 'core governemnt function.' Really?? It's MY responsibility that YOU have a ride to work?

WHen did that happen?

Anonymous said...

Here is what I think.

Mary Newsom and the newsomites have to live in Charlotte, a city blessed by great fortune, and constantly drive past homes bigger than theirs occupied by folks younger and more successful than them.

They drive down the street alongside cars costing 5 times as much as theirs, driven by people who earn 5 times what they do, and have no problem absorbing the 10mpg fuel bill.

They are inundated with reminders of how successful Charlotte has become, yet feel like they were left out of some gold rush.

Classic envy and reference anxiety. Everyone is richer than me, has a bigger house than me, is younger and prettier than me, and has more plasma screen TVs than me.

Let's get 'em!

We'll make them all live in highrises and 'level the playing field' through zoning and anti-SUV laws and make everyone take the train, because wouldn't it be sweet revenge to make that rich guy have to stand next to the smelly bum on the light rail??? That'll show 'em.

Grow up, Mary. You decided to become a journalist instead of an investment banker.

You CAN'T afford art museums and halls of fame and Meyers Park mansions and Hummer H2s.

Stop with your crusade to take away things from those who DID earn it.

Cato said...

While the arena is peripheral to the issue in the inital post, it remains important because of what it represents to a lot of people, particularly those who opposed it.

When the thing was still built after the public rejected it in 2001, I don't think that the powers that be (including the Observer editorial page) ever appreciated how much resentment it generated. This isn't just because a lot of folks felt like their votes were ignored, but because it clearly demonstrated the city's priorities. While we're trying to build enough amusements to get into the "world-class" club (there's a term I'd like to see retired, and take "vibrant" with it), we've become a worst-10 city for crime, the public schools are a disaster, and new private investment in Charlotte has been declining for years (Tara Servatius recently detailed this nicely in Creative Loafing). I realize that because of restrictions on the hotel-motel tax the arena money couldn't be spent for basic services, but that's what a lot of the arena opponents really wanted: a competent, efficient municipal government. Instead, we get bread and circuses.

The push to repeal the transit tax is sympotmatic of this alienation, as was the vote in 2005 against new school bonds. There's a sizeable portion of the local population that's grown tired of the message from the uptown crowd, which is essentially "Shut up, pay your taxes, and do what you're told."

Let me anticipate the common rejoinder for this kind of idea on these threads, which is usually a curt suggestion that I move somewhere else (further evidence of the totalitarian germ?). Check the growth patterns for the counties surrounding Mecklenburg. Many people are doing just that. What does this portend for the schools? Look at where new businesses in this region are opening. What does that do for the Mecklenburg tax base?

Anonymous said...

A few thoughts on this thread:

1) Buy a dictionary and look up "fascist" before you accuse people of being it.

2) The rail and arena issues are only slightly less annoying than bickering over CMS. There are forums out there for the sadomasochists who enjoy those conversations. Find them.

3) Stop with the personal attacks on Mary. The only connection you have with her is a couple of paragraphs of text every few days. You tell us a lot about yourself when you make personal attacks on a stranger.

4) Stop with the personal attacks on urbanists. There are reasons other than "jealousy" to prefer an urban environment. Maybe YOU believe life is defined by the amount of square footage in your home; as in point #3, this only informs us of your own lack of depth.

5) If you have time to post on here, I certainly hope you find time to vote.

Anonymous said...

"Don't you really think if mass transit is a good idea, there would be privatized, profitable systems SOMEWHERE ON EARTH???"

It is not possible for a private company to build a city train. Just think about what is involved in a train system, and the reasons for this should be quite obvious.

But let's set that aside for a moment. You say that because trains lose money, they should not be bothered with. I ask you: when was the last time a road made money? Why should the public have to pay for a street to connect YOUR house with the rest of our society? Can't you pay for that yourself with the tax money you'd save? Oh... you can't. Your transit is subsidized every single time you leave your driveway. You can thank "govco" for that next time you send in the tiny fragment of what it costs to actually maintain YOUR lifestyle.

"It's MY responsibility that YOU have a ride to work? "

Indeed. Can I request that none of my tax dollars go toward the roads in your neighborhood? Since I haven't ridden I-85 in years, can I just stop paying federal taxes?

Face it: your WHOLE LIFE is subsidized, from the business you work at to the food you eat to the roads you drive. Stop being a baby about losing a few bucks a year.

Anonymous said...

Two flaws here...

1) 'It is not possible for a private company to build a city train'

Really? I am pretty sure private enterprise launches satellites into outer space, I am pretty sure they can swing some iron rails and a choo choo car. Trouble is, there is no money to be made.

2) Roads are not 'subsidized.' The fuel taxes collected EXCEED the amount spent on roads, creating a surplus which is then spent on whatever Mike Easley feels is his pet project. Brush up on the bureau of transportation statistics annual report, which documents such things.

Roads make money. Trains lose money. Why? Because one has value and the other does not.

That is also why Amtrak is a failure. Proof? Go look for an airplane ticket from Charlote to Seattle, WA (or pick a city). then price an Amtrak ticket. Then look at travel times. Which would you pick?

Even die hard lefties like Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, etc. take airplanes and limos. Not trains.

Anonymous said...

Airlines also require heavy subsidy. We should close the airport.

Anonymous said...

By the way, if you are going to include fuel taxes as a part of the highway-spending equation, then you should also include tax revenue as part of the light rail equation. The city might lose money on tickets (just as you lose money up front building a road), but the money is made back in the massive amount of development that is triggered and sustained by the rail line. The same logic has proven true with the arena, as it did with the airport back when that was the hot-button topic.

Bottom line: you have to build if you want to survive. This city is not going to thrive without mass transit, whether you like it or not.

Rick said...

WOW!

"This city is not going to thrive without mass transit, whether you like it or not."

If that doesn't succinctly encapsulate the pro-train position to a T, I don't know what does.

First, scare the people.

Tell them the sky will fall if they don't build something that will carry a miniscule percentage of total local daily trips - no matter what it costs. Charlotte will close for business if you don't throw billions down the toilet on 1800's technology in the 21st century.

If that doesn't work, threaten them...

We are going to get our way "whether you like it or not."

By the way, these types of threats don't work. They are the same ones Pat McCrory and Pam Syphert made last Thursday.

After their comments hit the old media Observer and the new media WBT, I understand that the tax repeal effort had two of its biggest days yet. Friday and Saturday were above average in collecting signatures. The publicity verified for many individuals that this is for real, and people are even more willing to sign.

But please, keep on trying to scare us...it's humorous - in a sad, B-movie comedy sort of way.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
The stop the train moronslie to everyone to get their way. My wife and I have been approached numerous times. It's never about the train. Just reducing taxes. Until you drill them, they buckle and then tell you what it's actually about.
My coworker hade jury duty last week and said they were out in front of the court house with a line of people blindly waiting to sign a petition they knew nothing about (typical Charlotte style).
He spoke up and asked if this was about cutting funding for bus and train transit or just reducing taxes. The guy said "why yes, it's kind of about cutting transit funds on a silly train".
He said the line then dispersed.
What's wrong with you people ?
You will sign anything without knowing what it's really about.

Anonymous said...

That indicates to me that it will likely be repealed. People don't read the news. The wording on the ballot will say "repeal sales tax" and that is all people will read. They will likely just vote yes by reflex.

Anonymous said...

So sorry for the typos Rick. I must go guzzle a few quarts of coffee.

Anonymous said...

Mary,
What's up with Spirit Square getting sold off ?
Start a post on this. This is huge news. Spirit Square is home to numerous low budget, big quality local theater groups that are going to find it very difficult to survive now. There's no possible way they will be able to afford to relocate inside of uptown. This place has always brought great amounts of culture to Charlotte. I don't know all the details but somehow it involves the land swap for the baseball stadium. I enjoy a ball game as much as the next guy but Charlotte is going overboard with sports if we are selling out a place like Spirit Square so we can throw more balls around.
Enough with the sports already. There's more to life. Balance out already.

Uncle Dennis said...

Again, back to the topic.

New Urbanism is a label given to a trend that was started by itself, some people wanted to be free of the trappings of suburbia.

As this trend developed, profiteers, remember, making a profit is not a dirty word, began to develop ways to market to this group. Parts of the New Urbanism were singled out, and marketed to, and thus the label

Public utilities are designed as quasi governmental monopolies for a reason. If there were 10 different electric companies, should each run their own wires? How about water and sewage?

Transportation is no different.

The New Urbanism theme we are blogging on talks about the creation of mixed use development in a large suburban setting, kind of bridging the gap of the core city and the surburban lifestyle.

Remember also that Dilworth and Myers Park were designed as "streetcar suburbs" back when rail lines were private.

UD

Anonymous said...

let the petitioners get their signatures and put this on the ballot. The latest poll I saw on the repeal was about a 70-30 against the repeal and for staying the course on our transit plan. The right wing, anti-tax anti-everything crowd can bark all they want on the street corners, in front of the post office, and on WBT (since when was AM radio 'new media' by the way) but the referendum will set evrything straight. I'm pretty sure a well coordinated campaign is being established at this moment to get the right information out there. Bottom line folks, if you want to live in a fast growing, diverse city where extra services and cultural options are provided, stay in Charlotte. If you want log cabins, dirt roads, minimal taxes and to be left alone in you own little world, move 35 miles out. Simple as that, everybody wins.

Anonymous said...

Well if I believed in God I would scream
"Amen, Hallelujah " !! to the last poster.
But since I don't I'll give you a "Hell Yeah" !!

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Anonymous said...

Rick said...

"If that doesn't work, threaten them... We are going to get our way "whether you like it or not.""

I didn't threaten anybody, and I strongly resent your twisting my words in that direction. What I said was that "this city not going to thrive without mass transit, whether you like it or not". That is a FAR cry from a threat; it is a fact. Just as a city does not function without fire departments -- even though only a small part of the population ever really needs them -- it will not thrive without mass transit. I challenge you to show me ONE SINGLE CITY of Charlotte's size on that has attempted to thrive without rail. Just one. Go.

BTW, you are not off the hook for the point that you dodged in my previous post. How is it "fair game" to justify highway projects with fuel tax revenue, but not to include tax revenue as part of the light rail equation?

Anonymous said...

I think the more relevant challenge would be to name a city where light rail HAS been successful. There are no real examples of these working well. Portland has been a failure. You see people abandonning the city to move to neighboring counties. People with families especially.

Cleveland's city officials (where Ron Tober worked last) claim that their light rail systems "only moves air."

Light rail has a negligible impact on transit in terms of moving people. These systems are minor on the total population.

Anonymous said...

The potential for a repeal vote is really interesting to ponder about the possible outcome.

Outside of this blog and some city planners uptown, nobody really gets excited about transit issues. Very few people would call that a single issue vote for themselves.

It is not like the pro-choice vs pro-life debate where people get really passionate. The bulk of the population doesn't really care about transit issues. And those that really do need mass transit are not likely voters, especially in a low turnout year like 2007.

Most of those people don't likely read a daily newspaper. And they most likely vote Democrat, so if Pat McCrory brings them out, they likely are voting for his Democrat opponent. Tough situation for McCrory to be in.

It is very easy to see very little voter awareness on this issue. There will be mayor races, city council, all of the town councils, school board, school bond referendum, etc.

This transit tax repeal is a distant second behind the school bond in terms of priority for the average voter. It is very easy to see this debate getting lost with the school issues on the ballot this fall. The transit tax repeal could go either way. I give it a 50/50 tossup right now.

Rick said...

Ahhh, I love a good opening...

This Past Weekend’s Las Vegas News Paper

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/
stories/lv-other
/2007/mar/04/566686580.html

I thought of saving you the embarrassment of quoting from the article, then thought better of it. Here are a few jewels.

"I don't think light rail is likely in the foreseeable future here because it was determined that the rubber-tired bus is much more cost-effective and much more flexible in terms of routes," said Clark County Commissioner Bruce Woodbury, chairman of the transportation commission board.

"Light rail is more expensive, and once you determine a route, you're stuck with it even if ridership doesn't work out."

"More and more, said Daniel Hess, an assistant professor of urban and regional planning at the University of Buffalo, cities are turning away from light rail and toward bus rapid transit."

Las Vegas is one of, if not THE, fastest growing cities in the country.

Orlando, another, slow-poke on the growth trail has done just fine without rail – even Mickey Mouse is smarter than our local politicians.

www.orlandoweekly.com/features/
story.asp?id=8044

www.orlandoweekly.com/features/
story.asp?id=1723

While rail is in Orlando’s 2025 Plan I found this part of their plan summary interesting:

“Although the Cost Feasible transit element does not include such needed transit
projects as light rail and commuter rail because their costs are outside of the
forecasted revenue base
, they have been included in the Year 2025 Long Range
Transportation Plan on the premise that “reasonably available” revenues will be
instituted from several potential funding sources identified in the Year 2025 Plan. It is assumed that one or more of these sources will be implemented by the Year
2025“ (emphasis mine)

www.metroplanorlando.com/site/
upload/documents/
2025_LRTP_Exec_Summary.pdf

Louisville, Ky, my old home town, has also recently shelved their light rail plans due to cost. Louisville is one city often compared to Charlotte as one of our competitors.

They did that back in December, but I didn’t feel like paying for the link to the Courier Journal to prove it to you.

As for tax revenue question you posed, I didn’t dodge anything. I’ll give you that some of the development in our region is transit related. However, that wouldn’t include the most of the Uptown condo towers. Those would be built anyway. They also wouldn’t include the 80% of housing units being built outside the county. The truly transit related development comes nowhere close to raising the type of tax revenues needed to cover the costs.

See for numbers: www.realcities.com/multimedia/
charlotte/KRT_packages/archive/
mmpage/misc/housing2/index.html

Here’s a real simple question to ask yourself about which truly pays for itself – roads or rails. Would the region come to a halt economically if no more trains were built, or if no more roads were built? The answer is obvious.

Anonymous said...

Las Vegas and Orlando as models of urban development? Are you even typing this stuff with a straight face?

Anyway, note that both those cities cited funding problems as their primary reason for delaying rail construction. The difference is that Charlotte CAN afford the half-cent sales tax, and repealing it at this point would be a budgetary catastrophe. The angle you're taking is a non-starter and you know it. If you have committed this much time to the argument, you know full well what the fiscal repurcussions of a tax repeal will be.

Your second-to-last paragraph is still dodging the point. The complete revitalization of the South Blvd. corridor is due almost entirely to the rail line; the tax revenue in that district alone will pay for the rail system in the long run. Never mind the extra income at the stations at the arena, Epicentre complex, Westin, etc. You cannot deny that, in the long run, the money invested in the train system will be recouped in revenue growth and neighborhood development. And even IF there was a shortfall, it's awfully tough to create a dollar-value for the creation of entirely new, thriving districts all along the rail line. I'll say it again: your assertion that ticket revenue alone determines the cost-effectiveness of the rail line is a plain untruth.

The final question in your post is so obviously misleading that it doesn't deserve a response. I might as well ask, "Which would you prefer, shut down the power plants or cut off the water supply?". You're comparing two fictional, absurd scenarios that amount to nothing more than a red herring.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...
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Uncle Dennis said...

The one thing that keeps tying light rail to New Urbanism is the continued reuse of land.

One of the debates about buying some run down buildings in Belmont because they have fallen into questionable use ties sprawl development to route change.

As a new development on former farm land opens up, some people are attracted to it. As they move, the value of their property does not keep up with new property. People move in who have less incentive to care for the property, and it falls further behind. Public transit route changes stop serving that area, affecting other routes nearby.

With a fixed light rail system having permanent stations, the above scenario is less likely to happen, in fact, the opposite is more likely. Continued rejuvination of neighborhoods becomes a more likely scenario.

It is easy to see neighborhoods all over the city that have become victims of falling out of favor.

A light rail station is a constant value that will continue to maintain property values.

UD

Anonymous said...

Anon 3/05/2007 09:42:00 PM

I live uptown, vote Democrat, always vote and ride transit.
And you thought you knew everything about everyone ?

Rick said...

Just to be clear IF the current sales tax is repealed, I will push just as hard for a replacement SALES tax, not property tax, to fully fund and expand the bus system. I will push to have the express bus program expanded to all of the growing neighborhoods. I would even support some of the uptown trolley possibilities if money was left over. The bus system would not be destroyed and there would be no fiscal crisis. Those are the "threats" that I was referring to earlier, and yes, threats is the correct word.

You did NOT say urban development. You said "city of Charlotte's size".

Charlotte is not urban anyway. Go downtown on Saturday afternoon. Just about everything is closed. That doesn’t make it an urban center. Go to Georgetown in DC if you want to see a bustling urban center.

Vegas and Orlando (Orange County) ARE about Charlottes size which is what you asked - 575,973 and 896,344.

Mecklenburg County has 796,372 residents. My comparisons are direct apples to apples, not misleading statements about how Charlotte is somehow already this Urban Mecca which doesn't compare to those others.

As for my last comparison which you call a red herring, it was simply a way to starkly show which is more important - roads or rails - and yes, the answer is obvious.

I'll give you that there is a lot of growth on the South Corridor and it is rail related, but are you saying growth pays for itself? It sure sounds like it.

If so, then why don't we figure out how much property tax and other city taxes are being generated over and above what it costs for schools, water, fire, police, buses, and social service along that line and set that aside for future rail projects.

When the sales tax is repealed for future rail projects, feel free to use that "surplus" to fund them.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
Do you get out much ? About the only thing closed on Saturday afternoon is Dean and Deluca and some of the fast food Overstrret Mall stuff. All the fine dining, pubs, museums, library, theaters, etc. are open for business. More are opening everyday.
My guess is that once the new towers are opened then all of the smaller places will open for the weekend as well. Did you really need Overstreet Mall McDonalds to be open on Saturday Rick ?
Is that what you come uptown for ?
You need to just move buddy. Far, far away if you don't like it here.

fed up said...

Light rail in Charlotte has nothing to do with reducing congestion or pollution.

It has everything to do with generating tax revenue for the city. I'm sure everyone is aware of that.

Are the developers arm twisting to get subsidies from Char-Meck to cover the risk if the investment return is not adequate? Perhaps.

I agree with Danimal that to each his own...let people sprawl if they want to.

If you want to live in the Pink building...so be it.

Let a developer take ALL the risk which would force them to uild what people really want...not "create" a setting then have the Observer tell you how you should love it and if you don't, well, you're just backwards.

I think Chicago did it right with elevated trains. Charlotte will have one line at best and it will not service the most travelled avenues of commuting: Providence Rd., Independence, Park Rd., 485 or I-77. ( there is no way to handle the amount of traffic coming up 485 or 77 north in the morning with a pitiful Pineville station )Build elevated trains there that pay for themselves without heavy subsidies and you have something.

There is nothing wrong with sprawl.

As for wanting to manufacture "diversity" in these high density housing structures, it seems like some of you more liberal folks want to keep poorer people as pets..."allowing" them to stay in an area you just priced them out of so you can say to all your friends, "Hey, I've got diversity too!"
You do the most damage to those poorer people through this "New Urbanism."

Anonymous said...

Wow Fed Up,
You really don't think much of most people or the Observer. These comments you so disagree with are from local Charlotteans. Not the Observer. If you don't like it perhaps a move is in order ?
Why do you spend so much time trolling on a site run by a paper you hate anyway ?
Get a life Bozo.

fed up said...

I like most people just fine...and there are alot of good reporters at the Observer.

My comments about the Observer were directed at a few editorials...

My comments about "some more liberal folks" were directed at just them.

I have a great life...and you can disagree with me if you want...
its called free speech...

rick said...

Anon 3/06/2007 08:35:00 AM

Uhhh..I get out quite a bit, and I love it here. That's why I don't want rail to bankrupt the city.

My comment was based on a walk I had 2 weekends ago Uptown on a very nice Saturday afternoon. We ended up having a beer at Ri-Ra's because that was the first place on Tryon we saw open.

On one of my lunchtime walks, today I verified that the following don't open until dinner service on Saturday's:

Lattorre’s
Belles’ BBQ
Zink
Coco Osteria
Luce
McCormick&Schmick’s
Harry and Jean’s
most places in Latta Pavillion
Sonoma
Taverna 100
Blue
Snoops
Mimosa Grill

City Tavern was open at 1100.

Many of these have outside seating that would be PACKED if they were open in a truly urban area on a similar day. Check out the waterfront in Georgetown, DC for a real example.

Hopefully you are right, when all the Uptown condos are full these places will be open on Saturdays and packed. I don't think we need an $8 billion train system to support them though.

Anonymous said...

With the coming housing slowdown and the recession, I think many of these construction projects across the nation will be cancelled or delayed. There is a HUGE oversupply of new homes and condos across the nation. That sub-prime mortgage market is in the process of imploding. We may have three years to go during this housing downturn.

Charlotte will not escape unscathed. These things have impacts everywhere.

fed up said...

anon. said "With the coming housing slowdown and the recession, I think many of these construction projects across the nation will be cancelled or delayed."

I hope it doesn't impact Charlotte too much.

Does anyone know what the occupancy status is on the condo building being built on the NW corner of Sharon Amity & Providence? Will it be full when open or are they struggling to find buyers?

And I previously mentioned the Pink Building because I see it as an example of short-sightedness on the part of that developer, the city zoning, etc. I don't care if the glass was not supposed to be pink...that monstrosity was built with no foresight of the views it would block for future development.
And it is not full...I know someone who recently moved there ( I don't have the heart to tell her she's nuts )
To me, that is indicative of the bungling and poor planning that infects some of our developers and city planners.
That is my biggest beef with the rail...that ineptness followed by the blind defending in the face of that ineptness.

And to Rick's point, what people would want to be open downtown on the weekends are all the shops at SouthPark...they are just located in SouthPark. Downtown is only bars and restaurants.

Anonymous said...

The ongoing thought seems to be about how government should be used to subsidize various social amenities. Beyond the basic police fire and roads came libraries, public schools, parks etc. Now comes transit and entertainment.

Transit is an extension of roads, including buses, rail and airports, while entertainment is too amorphous to list, but includes 'art', stadiums etc.

The arguments made here include those which are completely rational, completely emotional and much which is a mix. They should be considered a fair representation of thought in our society.

What is then noticed is how rational statements are responded to with emotional laden comments. These comments seem to be made as if they are logical, thus reflecting the lack of rigor of the offering mind. This can be considered a reflection of the educational system's lack, whether public or other. Or it can be considered a lack of interest in philosophical consistency. Or something else.

In any event, the emotional arguements reflect only the philosphy of the 60's and 70's of "I'm ok, you're ok", wherein anything one wants to be or do is rationalized as acceptable. This false belief seems to be carried into the public sector where anything people want is rationalized as being the responsibility of government, just because they 'want' it. There is no logic or rationale for the use of government force, there is only emotion.

This then becomes the function of government, exacerbated in large part by those elected officials who will give anything away, especially their honor, to stay elected.

So we get the government we deserve, because we have no honor, believing that taking from others to give to ourselves is ok. Not considered are those who pay. But stealing is stealing, no matter if the government does it for you or you do it directly.

So those who enjoy the fruits of other's labor, continue your rationalizations for the use of government force, but your actions are those of a thief, and are less honorable as you avoid the responsiblity of the thievery by hiding behind the name government.


Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...

Lewis, showing your disdain for our local government is no surprise. We've kniown how you've felt about them all along. But to lay blame to the rest of the citienzry who support the current initiatives here in Charlotte is just plain condescending. Many other successful cities theoughout the US and the world have been doing what Charlotte is just now doing. Many have become thriving metropolises, just like a majority of Charlotteans want our local city to be. I hope you enjoy your spread out in Gaston County. Personally, I wish many like minds would do the same as you have. There just comes a point where there's a difference in debating a topic and being a voice in the wildernessand sounding like a crybaby all the time. I'm seeing way too many old school, Southern conservatives becoming the latter.

Anonymous said...

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT !


Go cry a river Lewis.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3/7 1:59 and Anon 3/7 5:14

You have made my point exactly.

Thank you.

Lewis

Anonymous said...

By the way, I am a Libertarian when the DemoPublicans in Raleigh will let us register.

I detest almost all government, not just local.

Lewis

Anonymous said...

Lewis,
Who are you kidding. You are a conservative jack hole.

Anonymous said...

No, a classic liberal.
Not to be confused with kneejerk reactionaries of any stripe.

But the name calling is only slightly entertaining. Can't you do any better, or have you taken up drinking decaf?

Anonymous said...

Okay, Sorry to disapoint. I just had my daily espresso.

STUPID F'ing G.O.P. FAT DUMB LAZY A$$ CONSERVATIVE DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO HYPOCHRISTIAN REDNECK LIVING IN GASTON A$$WIPE jack hole.

Oh yeah, backward Southerner.

How's that ?

Anonymous said...

Actually, not very expressive of your true feelings. Typically I don't ask a person why they hate themselves but in your case I can't resist: Why DO you hate yourself?

Anonymous said...

Haa Haaa,
Not a chance Buddy. I love myself and my life.
Nice try.

Anonymous said...

I beg to differ.
There are few reasons people must be as abusive of others, especially others with whom they disagree, except for lack of self esteem. Perhaps hate is too strong a word.

In any event I'm sorry for you.

Anonymous said...

These new urban villages give people a false sense of living in a town where everyeone knew everybody like people did n the turn of the century. The truth is its still a subdivision and its targeted towards people who if ideally they had money would opt to buy the pricey one million 3000sq ft 1905 Victorian home in Dilworth. But since they cant they settle for the faux version for less in Vermillion or baxter. At least they are not eyesores like many other subdivisions.

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