Got this e-mail, sent to a large number of recipients, from a former Charlotte City Council member who, like many of you, doesn’t support light rail. Here’s his comment, unedited:
“It is my belief that truth always wins. The fact that socialist propagandists and smart growth advocates want public rail systems for control and taxation to redistribute wealth, will fail. America is strong because Americans are good. We should begin the process of eliminating the negative messages produced by those who would overthrow our values and culture by countering them at every turn. Let’s get the message out .”
Um, does that mean if you support light rail you’re a socialist? Good grief.
And that to support light rail means you want to overturn American values and culture? Note, the e-mailer says “negative messages” should be eliminated. Down with that pesky freedom of speech thingie.
Reality: Plenty of Americans think light rail is a good public investment. Plenty don’t. There’s room for many opinions in America. Many of you who comment on this blog are living proof of that.
To disagree about what kind of public transportation should get public money doesn’t make anyone a socialist. Some folks need to get a grip.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Transit – socialist plot?
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95 comments:
Mary:
This person is writing an email stripped from a talk radio script (Substitute issue here). The comments are dupicated to attack any target. If you substituted atheists, humanists, Democrats, moral decay, civil unions, Islam, bureaucracy, then the substitution would sound as the repetitive fear monger he is. And surely it is a he. This person is preaching to his choir. I predict that this person has regular visits to AM radio. Care to gamble?
His obtuse language is muddying the real message: we should not continue to throw good money after bad on commuter rail. I cannot understand how anyone can accept and condone the complete fiscal botch-job on the south corridor. The excessive costs will mean the operational subsidies will be much higher. And who is going to pay for that...Yes Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer. Why are all the urban planners so heck-bent on continuing in such an fiscally imprudent manner? Clean-up the mess and come back later with a solid financial model and you might find people more accepting of the rail plan.
Ken is dead on with his assessment. We (and by "we" I mean "politicians who love spending other people's hard-earned money") accepted a budget at face value, even though light rail systems ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, go way over budget, and then we hired the company that drove the Big Dig in Boston into the ground (literally AND fiscally) to do the same here. Can anyone HONESTLY say that they're surprised our light rail system will be enormously more expensive than originally planned? Can anyone HONESTLY say that enough people will ride the light rail to justify its existence? Can anyone HONESTLY say that it was a good idea to begin with?
The answer to all three questions, by the way, is "no". And yet the light rail lobby will lie and connive to force even more of it on us, even though most of us will NEVER have occasion to use it.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how 19th century technology (trains) is the answer to 21st century traffic problems.
Try this:
1. Catch the train from Charlotte to Raleigh.
2. Have a friend drive.
3. Compare the elapsed travel time.
And, I'm sorry, "light" rail is just a watered down version. Expect relationally similar results.
These forum posters here, whether for or against, all sound like reasonable people. On the premise that every idea should remain open to analysis & to scrutiny (such as Charlotte's light rail system, which I have always been, and remain in favor of), I'm willing to hear more from the "other side" on this issue.....perhaps I'd especially welcome it from these posters because it'd be a refreshing change from the all-too-often heard kneejerk reactionary gasbags railing against any "liberal" idea, such as the e-mail Mary writes about. Now --- how 'bout somebody offer a well-reasoned alternative to promoting mass transit, as a way to begin to mitigate the exhorbitantly wasteful effects of one person/one car, creeping, polluting traffic that grows slightly bigger in Charlotte every day (a not-surprising problem to grasp when you simply realize that each of our vehicles, whether with one person or more, takes up about 40' x 12', or almost 500 square feet, of land space constantly as they're travelling along in traffic). Any suggestions? Spend billions to widen every suburban avenue & interstate highway by several lanes?
The anonymous poster (7:52 p.m.) making the comparison between travel times for a long train trip and a [normally] relatively quicker car trip, proves a point about how logic can be deceptively oversimplified. Yes, the train trip will be longer. However, this argument is based on a misleading premise (a selfish one, if you will) that something only makes sense if it makes sense for ME, not for the greater community. With all due respect I think this poster is ironic, without meaning to be, by saying we should be finding solutions for the 21st century --- it's critical, in fact, that in our 21st century, with a quickly growing population both locally & globally, that we think as WE, not as ME.
When I'm driving around town, do I enjoy stopping & starting & stopping (& waiting) at red light after red light? Of course not. But it goes without saying that if I just kept going non-stop & the hell with the other traffic, the whole COMMUNITY of drivers including myself would suffer greatly.
When the anti-public transit crowd can give me a breakdown of any road or airport that makes a profit in the market economy, then I will be more open minded to their argument against light rail etc. Yes developers and land owners with properties adjacent to the rail system are going to reap the benefits financially of the light rail line and in turn pay further tax dollars to the city. So what? The same has happened those who have property along I-485 as it builds its way around the county. where's the 'socialist fearmongering' for those success stories? I will not bring up the benefits of riding trains in New York, Boston and Washington, etc. because somebody will throw the apples and oranges comparisons. But look at Dallas, Salt Lake City and soon Phoenix, which have similar densities to Charlotte and are embracing their light rail systems, even after similar protests in their communities?
I think this has less to do with taxes and subsidies for some people and more to do with the changing culture of the city. What was once just another sleepy Southern town like Montgomery or Shreveport is now approaching the forefront of the metropolitism of Atlanta or Dallas, and that just scares some people. Sorry guys, this ain't your grandfather's Charlotte anymore (and no, I ain't no commie either).
Danimal
thank you Danimal.....right on.
Public transportation comes in more forms than rail. The point of Mary's post had to do with whether or not someone could be described as socialist for supporting rail. Well of course they can, and should. If rail transportation is a means of production, which it is, and it is owned by the government, which it is, then rail is a socialist program.
Further, there are many such in this country, state, county and city.
What is curious is that those who espouse such plans refuse to use the correct descriptive name for such policies. This may be unintentional which would mean they lie to themselves, or unintentional, which would mean they delude themselves.
Certainly rail lite is not a capitalistic project. So if those who deny it is socialist believe it to be something else, please let us know what that something is.
But to put Mary's statement in different form - Rail lite is a socialist project, so if you support it you support a socialist project.
Lewis Guignard
The use of public monies, gained via an unavoidable 1/2 cent sales tax, is not a zero sum game. In economic terms the investment in light rail is a an opportunity lost (ie: you could invest in college for your child/grandchild) to each individual taxpayer, whether they use or not use light rail. My point is that we seem to be giving a free pass to those in charge of rail plan that is fiscally out of control. It is the right and domain of citizen taxpayers to demand accountability and prudent management of public funds, as they are our lost economic opportunities. The only way to achieve such accountability is to shut-down funding to those who are wasting our investment. I am not against light rail, as I have seen very good light rail systems (...Chicago for example). The transit people need to stop, assess the botched financing and complete new financial models that demonstrate they have better financial control of the situation. Then we can turn the funding back on.
Well if light rail is a socialist project and those who support it support socialist projects as well, count me guilty as charged. I would take that to mean that any other government funded public works project is a socialist project too including, but not limited to, roads, sewers, police and fire protection, schools and universities, military, and countless other benefits we all have as Americans. I fully support all of those as well. Quick...somebody...get me my little red book!
Danimal
Mary,
I wouldn't think you'd be on Don Reid's distro list. I personally wasn't so privileged. (The comment "former Charlotte City Council member" sort of gives it away.)
Freedom of speech? Huh? What?
Which side of the political spectrum supports speech codes on colleges? Which side treats political correctness almost as a religion? Which countries have official limits on freedom of the press vs. which ones have freedom of information acts?
Danimal,
Where's your outrage? Where's your righteous anger? You got so upset a couple of weeks ago when I said the same thing about shutting down free speech as Mary just did on a similar subject. At least she was just called a socialist (a lie?). I was called much worse.
Everyone seems to be for something that is paid on another persons dime. Can anyone really say they are satisfied with the financial wreck that is the light rail plan? This is a unique opportunity for the average citizen to stand-up to those government bodies that continue to flush money down the rat hole with impunity. Can we stop property taxes, no. Can we stop income taxes, no. Can we stop a 1/2 cent sales tax that enables an out-of-control light rail plan to continue to burn money,YES. And we should do so until they prove they can be better keepers of our money.
Quoting Danimal: "... count me guilty as charged. I would take that to mean that any other government funded public works project is a socialist project too including, but not limited to, roads, sewers, police and fire protection, schools and universities, military, ..."
This is where people go too far. First, sewers, police, fire, parks and military are not means of production.
Schools are arguable. Roads certainly are, and buses fall with group as rail lite.
But there is nothing to be defensive about if you support these socialist projects, unless you are embarressed by your true politics.
I support bus systems and roads. So I am in part a socialist. There seems to me no way to supply transportation needs in a generally capitalist society, wherein private property exists, without the government function of eminent domain. Roads would never get built. Buses are needed for those without the ability to supply their own transportation. Could they be a capitalist product.Greyhound is. Could local be. I don't know the numbers. The current method is extremely wasteful in many ways. Could a price increase coupled with increases in efficiency make it a profitable operation. Maybe. It would be interesting to try.
In the meantime I support giving people a ride who need the buses. In some people's case they should pay full fare. Perhaps bus fares should be means tested. UD might find his ticket costing enough to convince him to get a car.
Anyway. We are all a mix of socialist, totalitarian, anarchist, capitalist and, I am sure, some other political stripe. It depends.
So what.
We do not have and have never had pure capitalism in this country, so why get upset when the truth is told. Vestiges of McCarthyism and Political Correctness perhaps?
Lewis Guignard
Ahhh, light rail at last!
Does anyone have a copy of the original budget for the project, and the revised budget which shows where the cost estimates were wrong? Before we start shooting the messenger, we should know what we are talking about.
Since the plan was announced, the landscape in the US has changed significantly, 9/11, Katrina, building boom in Charlotte and elsewhere. In a free market economy, supply and demand is how things are priced.
We are growing up as a city, and will need a rail infrastructure to continue to support its growth. While I choose to be car-less, I am not anti-car. The realities are that if you believe that the core city is a core for a reason, and that the land in the core is not going to increase, but the amount of people coming her is, and that you cannot build more exit ramps from the interstates, or widen the core city streets, there is no place for more cars to go. I will again point to the motivational seminar last fall and the total gridlock that created with just 5000 additional cars in the city.
As to be considered a socialist, I would rather be considered a part time capitalist, part time libertarian, part time socialist, part time communist, etc as ideas become mixed with reality. To me that makes more sense than being a blind ultra fundamentalist, inflexible, and not willing to listen to anything else.
UD
Our local officials have been in Washington this week discussing our transit issues. I have learned this morning from a high ranking local government figure that If the transit tax is repealed D.C. has told them they will discontinue any and all future transit monies to Charlotte.
Talk about wasting money. That's tons of free cash down the toilet because a few people got their panties all knotted up over this light rail project.
With no cash from the Feds who do you think is going to pay for the transit ? Do you really think Charlotte is going to just cancel all transit in the city ? Of course not. They will simply raise everyones property tax to compensate for the lost revenue. So now instead of everyone who spends money in Charlotte paying the 1/2 cent tax it will come only from the home owners.
Real smart people. Way to think things through.
Nice job lying to everyone to get them to sign the petition as well. Hiring a company to get signatures. You guys could go work for Bush and Co. with all of your underhandedness.
Me, me, me. It's got to stop. We are a growing city. Think of it as "WE" for a change. It's not all about new roads to your cul-de-sacs or about your childs schools. There are plenty of us who don't need cars or schools. But we don't rally to get them to stop spending our hard earned cash on your projects.
Are you really so worried about that 50 cents per $100 spent ?
It's give and take as it has always been. Iron out your panties, grab a beer and chill out.
Can Charlotte sustain another unfinished transportation project? Come on do you all remember when they said " We have all the money in the bank for the finish of I-485". Now we have another iron in the fire that Charlotte may not be able to finish because of money problems; And the Federal Government isnt handing out money for "earmark " Projects. It took Charlotte over 20 years just to get 2/3rds of the freeway in and would bet many businesses would like to grow here but are afraid to put a company here that cant get access to all human resources. Where are the priorities when it comes to finishing one project and going on to the next. Like College degrees , its not all what you learn its finishing for that degree that shows perseverance and integrity.
What about a major hurricane coming through Charlotte like "HUGO" someday; This will happen again folks , history repeats itself more often than not. Why , the Freeway system we have wouldnt get us out the door in this city , if we had to vacate for a while; We are due for a serious Hurricane and they have been hitting here before this Country was discovered; The South has always depended on Hurricanes to bring up the water tables from depletion; History points out that farmers prayed that Hurricanes rain system would help rain pelt the dry soil for agriculture. So by not having the freeway system in we could not reach higher ground if the electric went out or worse food supply at the stores grew short. A study has shown that if a panic struck the supermarkets would last for three days supply because of new inventory management.The stores cant take losses on perishable goods so they have cut back ,and or course,If the electric gets knocked out doesnt help matters.
The I-485 is a matter of HOMELAND security also, could you all imagine the unthinkable and the panic it would bring; All the Yankees and Southerners running to New York, New Jersey and Atlanta for a safe haven until matters would be resolved , LIKE KATRINA. This Freeway system should have been finished years ago and People of the U.S. should demand the Federal Government for some answers to this and how we can "just get er done" God damit
I hope none of you anti-socialists never took advantage of student loans, walk in the park or drive on roads. If so, you're part of the socialist agenda.
When light rail is added to our regional transit system here in the Research Triangle area around Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill, even more folks will be enjoying the free enterprise system while giving their cars and yes, their pickup trucks, a much deserved "idle" period.
Why, when light rail is finally in place around here, folks will be practicing up on their presentations while saving on gasoline bills, so they'll surely be laughing all the way to their favorite Charlotte-based bank branch.
So Charlotte Hometown, don't fall too far behind in the Great Light Rail Challenge. Paraphrasing the old bluegrass standard:
Don't let your deal go down.
Don't let your business catch a chill.
Better ride that rail through town.
And close that deal in Rock Hill.
The solution is:
Everyone needs to sign that stupid petition – stop the train. Here is why – we can take the issue back to voters. If we have vote and Mecklenburg supports the transit tax then the anti-trains guys have to shut up for awhile. If the anti-train tax guys win the vote then the city council will just raise taxes and move ahead anyway – like they did with the Arts and Entertainment vote when the city built everything the voters rejected. Why on earth would the pro-trains people have any fear of bring the issue back to the voters?
And yes Socialism is embedded in our society has been since even before FDR and his creation of the “temporary” welfare state. The Contract with America, The Great Society, The War Against Poverty – these names alone just scream Socialism.
GR
GR,
Why on earth would the pro-trains people have any fear of bring the issue back to the voters?
Because, like you said, they will get the money somehow. Raising property taxes is the likely route. This is why we don't want the tax repeal. Not only will it make the burden of the transit totally on home owners. It will also be more of a burden. Now it's spread out among everyone, renters and owners, even visitors. Everyone pays a little. If it becomes just home owners then that cuts half the Meck population (renters) and all visitors from having to contribute.
So instead of your measly 1/2 cent tax you will be paying a ton more in property dax due to the smaller population (owner) base.
I was going to weigh in on this, but this piece by Joel Kotkin pretty much sums up my thoughts.
Scroll about halfway down to get to his article:
http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.19171/article_detail.asp
And for some good contrarian material about New Urbanism generally, I'd recommend http://www.joelkotkin.com/
To the 7:58 AM poster: that "free" Federal money that your getting is still tax money taken from the citizens. To be honest, I am not sure I can afford all this "free" stuff anymore.
Uncle Dennis, in the free market system a private enterprise considers the time value of money (ie: inflation) when crafting a business plan or significant capital investment. When the light rail plan was crafted, it used "today's" dollar values and did not consider the time value of money. How smart was that? To be honest, I believe it was a purposeful decision to use "today's" money in the original plan. Why? Because if the average citizen saw how much this plan was really going to cost over time, the sales tax would have not been so appealing.
Good stuff Cato.
Thank you.
May all the protrain buffs read it with open minds.
I'm not going to argue about socialism because, quite frankly, it's retarded and not really related to the light rail issue at all as far as I'm concerned.
A simple observation: Charlotte infrastructure, as it stands today, cannot support the projected amount of people that will move here in the coming years. Parts of the city are straining already. There are only so many ways to relieve that congestion. The light rail is one. Enhancement to our existing highways is another. More buses are another.
Quite simply, we need to fund these enhancements and the money to do that comes from taxes.
The management of the project is the problem if they continually run over budget. Let's not confuse the issue.
Since some posters don't want to pay for something "they won't ever use"; I want a stop to collecting taxes for schools. I do not know, nor will I ever have children. Why should I be paying other people's children? I'm blind, can't walk and too old to drive how do I get around? Why should I pay for the bloody roads? While we're at it, how much money did I-85 make last year? How much money did Independence Boulevard make last year?
An obvious Socialist, anti-free market, tactic takes away property-rights. For example, zoning rules make it impossible for ACE Toxic Waste Dumps from opening a containment center in our neighborhood and steps on my rights as a landowner to sell my land to whomever I want to use however ACE sees fit...
Dang liberals!
"Free market systems"...do people really believe that such a thing exists? Please. Our houses are subsidied, the roads we drive on are subsidized; oil companies are subsidized. Heck, we even have impediments against a truly "free market system" with regulations against human body parts being used in food processsing.
You Liberals need to stop interfering in my rights to use my land however I want, put whatever I want in my sausage, and stop taxing me for other people's roads, schools, and "oil exploration".
Why are we building roads that are mostly empty 20 hours a day?
Does anyone know by how much the I-485 is over-budget and how far behind it is from it's original schedule?
Does anyone know how much it cost us to pay for the "mistakes" NCDOT made on the I-485 signs or "The Lane to Nowhere?" they "forgot" to design and build where the 485 meets I-77?
Talk about throwing good money after bad!
NCDOT blows millions every day on botched repair jobs, roadside landscaping, "design errors", etc.. We should be holding them to the same standard expect from CATS - both are responsible for "public transportation" (roads are public too...).
"I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how 19th century technology (trains) is the answer to 21st century traffic problems.
Try this:
1. Catch the train from Charlotte to Raleigh.
2. Have a friend drive.
3. Compare the elapsed travel time.
And, I'm sorry, "light" rail is just a watered down version. Expect relationally similar results."
For anyone who thinks travel by rail is "19th century technology" and not appropriate in the 21st century, I hope they don't work for an automaker (invented in the 19th cnetury) or travel by airplane (invented in the very beginning of the 20th century). Lord help them if they rely on ships to get them the things they buy at the store - we're all in real trouble I guess, since we not supposed to use "old" technology - I guess the refridgerator should go too. Oh, let's keep this to transportation...better stop using those elevators people...another 19th century transportation innovation. 19th century technology?
As for the comparison between driving and taking rail...
Try this, I leave Charlotte at 6AM for an 10AM meeting in Raleigh. I get stuck in traffic in Greensboro, then Burlington, then Durham and RTP. What have I done in the nearly 4 hours it takes me to get to Raleigh through everyday traffic jams? Nothing, but drive.
The same trip was taken by train. What did I do? I slept, eat breakfast, worked on my laptop, and got ready for my meeting. Obviously, anyone who "likes" doing nothing for 3 - 4 hours but driving has too much time on their hands and wouldn't know the meaning of "productivity" if it hit them on the head.
To Anon 9:51
U said: I'm not going to argue about socialism because, quite frankly, it's retarded and not really related to the light rail issue at all as far as I'm concerned.
Typical statement from a person who finds the discussion about a subject personally uncomfortable. Attack it - call it a name. Perhaps you could have said nothing about your opinion on Socialism, which opinion was irrelevant to the rest of your note, but which was the start of the blog, but no, you had to be mean first.
It was unnecessary. Please desist.
I too ride the train occasionally between Raleigh and Charlotte.
It makes me wonder how much my seat is subsidized.
In comparison it would be interesting to know the actual costs per vehicle mile on the highways, then compare that to my direct taxes per mile - the fuel taxes.
In city driving the property taxes directly attributed to roads would have to be included.
Then a comparison could be made of real subsidies.
There is also a letter in the paper today about bond ratings and a no vote on the transit tax. If our bond ratings decreased, our cost of borrowing would increase by probably 1/2 of one percent.
While this in itself is significant as a real number, if concern is about that, then I suggest those concerned should be concerned about the total cost of the project on the taxpayers, not the incremental cost of a lower bond rating.
Let us be clear, increased overall costs due to a lower bond rating are insignificant compared to the waste of the project at hand.
Lewis Guignard
Lewis Guignard
Simple.
It's been said before.
Don't like it.
Move.
“If you don’t like it move”
This statement is ignorant, undemocratic, un-American and sad that it is said so often.
How about a new statement: If you don’t like it do something.
That would involve me fighting to get your churches to pay taxes and my tax money to stay inside the I277 loop.
Doesn't make much sence does it ?
I am smart enough to know that all things have their place and need.
Getting along, give and take, now that's the solution.
These stop the train people only want it one way, "their way". They don't care about any other side of the argument. Just theirs. They will lie to people to get them to sign.
Who would want to be part of that ?
As far as "if you don't like it change it", I guess they did last November.
How is possible that some people think that the way to "solve" our traffic problems is to build more roads and approve development in places that only encourage people to drive more?
When adding up the "cost" of roads, especially the construction of roads where there's low density, please remember to include the cost of new water, sewer, schools, police, fire, parks, etc. that all the new houses and shopping centers that will be approved along the road will need.
Don't forget to include the cost of "redeveloping" all the empty buildings being left behind as development spreads further and further out.
Don't tell us the "market" determines where development occurs either when town's, banks, the federal government regularly work to subsidize the cost of development in the hinterlands. If it were truly "market" driven, why then is a run-down house of 1000 square feet in a run-down neighborhood near the transit line costs $300,000 and the same house out in the middle of a cornfield costs $90,000?
If you're so concerned with "Fiscal efficiency" people, why let lands already served by police, fire, water, sewer, parks, schools, etc. go underutilized and allow development to occur where none of these things exist?
For the 11:23 anonymous
Accusing the other side of only wanting it their way, while you seem to only want it your way, without considering theirs.
Votes to win bonds etc., are simple majority votes, where the loser pays the bills like it or not, even though the vote may have been 51% to 49%. What then of the minority?
Lewis
I don't think rail is a socialist conspiracy.
I do know liberal-minded people who believe the government should solve everyone's problem...and with that, they believe they know better for everyone. That is socialist.
Rail ( as the saviour for mass transit ) is just a part of their dream.
I do know conservative people who support light rail and they are far from socialist...but they would rather see buses utilized first rather than going to the expense of rail construction.
Rail is a too little, too late answer to a problem we cannot possibly fix without removing 50% of the cars from our roads ( which I do NOT advocate ). Rail will not improve traffic. Anyone who tells you it will is lying...
If you people work anywhere near uptown, live out in Burbia near the end of the rail line and use the rail it WILL reduce the amount of cars on the road.
It's simple mathmatics. If you don't you simply don't care about the environment. It's that simple.
I live uptown. I commute to work outside uptown via bus for now. Rail in the future. It takes me 10 more minutes than if I drove myself. No big deal.
Any around the city stuff is on foot or bike.
I actually sold my car over a month ago.
I share the road with 75 other people on the bus. That's 75 cars off the road for just that one bus.
That will be a few hundred off the road for just one light rail car.
.....if YOU ride it.
Give it a try. It's simple. You drive to the station, park your car, hop a ride. Sit back, read, work on your lap top, whatever. Before you know it your'e at the office.
No road rage to deal with, no traffic, less gas, less polution.
It works in the bigger cities. Possibly it's just the small town mentality that we cannot overcome here in Charlotte ?
........and believe me I can afford about any type of vehicle I could ever want. I choose mass transit because I believe is the correct thing to do for our city. For any city.
It's just a willingness to change. I admit it took me awhile of pondering it before I made the switch.
But it's been good.
Where to begin? There is so much misinformation, misdirection, confusion and raw anger here that it's hard to know where to start.
1. Anon 3/15/2007 07:58:00 AM
This guy seems to believe we should accept the classic drug dealer pitch. "Here, take this free stuff, but we'll have you hooked and paying for the rest of your life." Like someone else said, all this "free cash" costs too much. Does anyone else see the humor in the term "free cash"? It just magically appears out of nowhere I guess.
2. Multiple posters seem to be making a "two wrongs make a right" argument by implying that just because roads require additional subsidy (which is arguable based on gas taxes collected), that it is Ok for light rail to do the same.
Here's the difference.
Everyone benefits from roads because the economy would grind to a halt without them.
Trains' best arguments go like these:
"We might be able to someday say that we possibly had an effect on the rate of increased congestion assuming no more roads are built."
"In the event that hybrid cars and alternative fuels don't take off (they already are, btw), we could then maybe say that we had some effect on the environment."
"We gave people an alternative! Of course that alternative requires that you live where we want you to live. Travel when we want you to travel. And go where we want you to go." (This last one sounds pretty totalitarian to me, way beyond Socialist. The fact that the local TAP plan was considered a failure this past assessment because it only corralled 60+% of development proves this point.)
3. As for the property tax increase boogeyman...
If you believe Anon 3/15/2007 07:58:00 AM (a questionable proposition being an anon with an unnamed source), you have nothing to worry about regarding a property tax increase in the event the transit tax is repealed. Let's say he's right and the federal money goes away if tax repeal is successful. That's it. Game over. End of story. A tax increase would now have to cover the whole cost of the project. NO POLITICIAN WOULD BE CRAZY ENOUGH TO RAISE TAXES THAT MUCH!!! You don't need to worry. They love their jobs too much.
However, I do not believe Anon 3/15/2007 07:58:00 AM precisely because he is an anon with an unnamed source. So what happens then?
Well, the pro-train, property-tax, scaremongers consistently leave out information on this subject exactly because they want to scare you. Let's get answers to a couple of questions.
Q. How did the current transit tax get on the ballot in 1998?
A. It was put there by the county commission.
Q. Do you honestly think that any politician, particularly a Republican Mayor, wants to run on a platform of raising property taxes?
A. No.
Q. What will happen if the transit tax is repealed?
A. The same tax as language as 1998 may be put back on the ballot for a re-vote in the spring, but this time the money will be solely for buses and roads. Another possibility is that a companion tax is put on along side the repeal to do the same thing. Bus service will probably increase as more express buses hit the road to the suburbs, supplying a much quicker and infinitely more flexible solution to our transit problems. Less money is wasted over the long haul. We get to see what the South Corridor does before we charge ahead with others. We get to act like normal, sane, thinking people. The fact that the light rail, anti-petition, anti-voter, anti-democratic crowd is afraid of this should tell you all you need to know.
UD,
You bring up a very good point. The world has changed since 1998. That's exactly why the people need the chance to change their minds now that they have more information.
Cato,
Thanks for the docs - very helpful.
to: anonymous @ 5:05 pm:
In every city where there is rail, there is no reduction in congestion.
Even CATS website admits rail is not about reducing congestion.
If the rail went to my job in S.C. then I might take it on occasion, but it doesn't nor will it ever until I am long retired.
You see, the simple mathematics are that there are alot more cars on the road than what 75 - 200 less would ever affect.
Rail is only being built along the South Corridor because of convenient, existing space...not because there was a dramatic need to reduce South Blvd. congestion.
If congestion were the problem, why wasn't rail proposed for Providence Rd., Park Road...ushed more heavily on Independence, proposed along 77 and 85?
The reason? High density development for a broader tax base.
Nice try with the "small town mentality" but this is more about fiscal responsibility.
And I am a conservationist; I care about clean air, water, forests, beaches, streets, etc.
You mention the bus. I too have rode the bus. Its great. That is the way to go. High speed express bus lanes in rush hour traffic. Reverse lane direction for the most heavily travelled 4 lane roads.
That is a lot less expensive than wasteful rail construction for a train I could only possibly ride for fun on the weekend and would still need to drive my car to the station. What a waste that would be...
Taking on the straw man of increased property taxes if the transit tax is repealed; do you really think your property taxes WON'T increase with the current transit tax?? The hopelessly out-of-control budgets for the light rail will only create larger and larger operational gaps, requiring more tax payer paid subsidies. The increased subsidies, along with debt service, will have the politicians in your pockets again without a second thought. The sales tax will only get them so far...so you can expect revaluation of your home's assessed value (...devious property tax increase) or an all out rate increase (...a more up-front tax increase). Don't buy the fearmonger's property tax bogeyman.
Obviously there are different opinions in favor and against light rail. Everybody is saying something but without really trying to convince the other side. I believe that most people who post these comments are intelligent human beings that really care about standard of living. And I hope that most of us here would accept rational arguments in a discussion
That being said, why not have a real discussion instead of an online one?
I would be very interested in listening on rational arguments (backed up with real data) in why one side is better than the other
Alex
Alex makes the point about a real discussion. I suggest that is where the news media should help, but possibly the only place an unbiased story would occur would be on Mike Collins show. WBT is one sided in their talk shows, their news department is too short. The Clt Observer shows its opinions even in its news stories.
To the original thought.
Without question rail is a socialist operation. I include here Amtrak and all the commercial operations. Rail is an expensive business, demanding right of ways. Without government, they would be difficult, if not impossible to build. So our local rail lite is not the first in this socialistic line.
As a stand alone item, this is not a problem, but it is only another in a long list of problems where those involved directly or indirectly with government find ways to spend money on projects with no relationship to results. CMS has long been my special peeve, as their continual wasteful spending on unnecessary buildings and programs has never been shown to be related to educational results, yet this year brings a new superintendent asking for more when recent test results show no improvement after the hundreds of millions spent recently.
Rail lite is another of this type.
The problem is growth in these socialist programs. As the great unwashed become inured to the idea of government control and waste, it will become larger, leaving less for those who work.
So far as the vote to repeal the tax is concerned, I see restrictive laws limiting the ability of the people to have issues reexamined. The vote for the tax was some years ago. Was it a vote forever binding? Should the people never have a choice in whether to revisit these decisions?
In other venues the question comes up regularly due to the nature of bonds. Bond money must be spent within a limited time, so the issuing agency must come back to the voters on a regular basis to ask for more. CMS just lost a bond vote for numerous reasons.
Should rail lite be any different?
Why should these supporters and associated bureaucrats be forever entitled to an unending stream of taxpayer funding?
I think a vote every 4 years would be a better plan. The county commission could make that happen without any petition, but as the majority there is more socialist than capitalist, it won't this year or next.
Which goes back to whether rail lite is socialist. Yes, and so is the majority of the government in this county, elected and otherwise, democrat or republican.
DEMOCRACY: "Democracy in America is doomed when the people learn to vote themselves money from the public trough..." - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America.
As these socialist projects are votes from the public trough, I suggest we are on the downward slope.
Lewis
Frankly, I'm looking forward to having the option of light rail. I probably won't take it every day, but it will be a nice alternative a couple of days a week.
Is light rail the saviour of Charlotte? Hardly. But, it is an option for those that choose to give it a try.
Let someone else do the driving for a change.
Something to think about...Rail freight companies is the only form of transportation that doesn't receive public subsidies in one form or another. Private rail freight companies own their rail lines, pay for their own maintenance, etc. and still manage to turn a profit. Trucking companies, airlines, bus lines, private automobile owners, transit systems can't say the same.
Anon 9:34...I don't have a problem with you riding the train once in a while either. Just pay the FULL cost of the fair. I bet will make you reconsider. Why get taxed to death for something that would be nice to have once in a while? It's insane logic.
By the way, roads do pay for themselves. Look at the cost of living in Hawaii. As an island state it ships in a substantial amount of goods for consumers. As such, they pay substantially hihger retail prices. Anon 10:45 says freight rail pays for itself. I agree to an extent. But, how many Food Lions, Harris Teeters, Targets, etc have train unloading docks?? None that I know of. So, you still need to use trucks from intermodal stations, which require...you guessed it...roads.
Let's test the South Blvd line this way:
Charge people WHAT IT ACTUALLY COSTS to ride it for one year.
By CATS own estimates, that will be about $11 per one-way trip.
Let's see how many people will use it.
If it breaks even after a eyar, then it works. If not, then the people (remember them? the 'people' have decided it is not worth it).
Get ready to muddy the waters with 'mass transit helps the poor' and 'mass transit reviatalizes the area' and all the other nonsense.
Supporters of failed mass transit need to get a degree in economics. Nothing is free. If you take $500 million out of the economy to build light rail, that is just $500 million not spent on something else, invested in something else, or otherwise circulating.
Unfortunately most people slept through high school ECON101 and it is quite easy to convince people that they are getting something for nothing.
More projects by Govt ultimately leads to higher taxes which leads to higher prices, cost of living, etc.
Why do you think it is more expensice to live in New York and Chicago and LA? Big city means big govt means more taxes, lousy infrastructure and the continued migration elsewhere of those who can move, leaving behind those who cannot.
Charlotte is a new city, but could learn many lessons from older cities. We want to be 'metropolis' but will end up like Detroit if you keep neglecting the basics (crime, schools, roads) and build toys that are shiny for about a year.
Sure, let's pay the full price for a light rail ride. While we're at it, let's each pay the $500 subsidy we get every time we get on the on-ramp of an interstate. Folks, we are all getting a major subsidy of some sort every day from the government. Even Libertarian Lewis, benefits from government programs of some sort every day.
If you don't like the policies and taxes of Charlotte and/or Mecklenburg county, move to a county outside of the borders and do all your shopping out there. Some people will call me ignorant and undemocratic for saying that. Why? I don't know. It sounds like a simple problem with a simple solution. Best of all, you can mooch off the prosperity of living near Charlotte without actually contributing (which sounds even more socialistic actually). Somebody from out of town will gladly take your place, as they know how efficient our city government actually is compared to other cities.
Danimal
Danimal...I do pay my subsidy for the interstate and roads. It's called the gasoline tax (federal and state). It's a tax I pay on every gallon of gas. I am quite sure you are all for the gas tax, any form of taxation does not seem to bother you. Don't you have something better to do with your money? I know I can do better if I kept mine.
Instead of me leaving, how about you move to one of those other enlightened cities, like Portland, and you can ride a subsidized train all day if you'd like. Your arguements cut both ways. Even better, your accusations of mooching can be directly applied to you and your train ride. I'm sure you will be incensed by my turing the mirror towards you.
At the current rate of taxation and spending, our area is going to become an urban hull, like Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburg, Cleveland, etc. I am standing up against it since I, too, like it here.
Ok let's to the math
Assume 10,000 daily commuters onto Charlotte daily. Assume each train car carries 100 passengers and each train has 7 cars (700 passengers/trainload). A one-way trip into Charlotte takes 25 minutes. With 3 train corridors coming into Charlotte every morning, it would take a little over 4 3/4 hours. One half of a work day. That's effiency in action.
To get to a reasonable total transit time (~1 hr), you could not transport anymore than 2100 commuters into Charlotte during the morning rush. At $500,000,000 price tag amortized for 10 years, that is ~$23,809 per year per passenger What a deal. Don't forget they did pay a ride fair: $3. So the tax payer subsidy is a miniscule $12,859 per passenger per year. What a deal!!! Your right Danimal, our local governments are truly efficient!
So I've heard everything so far, we have the right wing name callers- nasty socialist--like one person calls you a whore (liberal) and another ups the ante to slut (socialist) it adds so much to the discussion.
Has anyone addressed our very bad air here and the deal with the federal government to reduce this city's auto emmissions or face loss of federal highway funds? That is a big part of the mass transit plan, trains and busses included. Do away with mass transit, don't raise taxes and watch billions in federal highway aid go away..
And speaking of highways...
Also- we are about, by my estimate 5-7 years behind in road building here, and if we arent't careful we'll be 10 years behind shortly...
Management of the project is a separate issue and we do not need a Southern Style Big Dig Charlotte.. butlet's also be realistic, every mass transit project for every city I've ever heard of, has gone way over budget. So lets agree to find a way that encourages accountability... somewhere in the country I'll bet this has beeen don, who can find it?
At the risk of sounding or acting like a socialist (slut), I'd like to propose the grand compromise to make getting around in Charlotte easier, and to lower the very fast growing number of cars on the road for the next half century.
We'll start highways first, within 5 years, find the way, find the will and $ to:
complete 485
Expand 485, 8 lanes 77 to Johnston rd, 6 lanes to Matthews
Make East Independence a Freeway from downtown to 485
Build the Monroe Bypass
In the north, make highway 150 a real road between Mooresville and Denver
And Light rail-- yes to UNCC and Yes to Mooresville.
For this city to remain a place your children will want to live, these roads need to be done, to keep Fed Funding of our highways the light rail needs to be done, and ... so if it needs to be done, let's have some leadership, save money and do it now, and let Charlotte embrace the 21st century, not run from it.
In the interest of full disclosure I am a full time Realtor who relocates many families here every year from all over the country. Each family comes with their own story of issues with their quality of life, and remind me daily of how good we have things here. You can meet me at www.terrymcdonaldrealestate.com or my relocation site, www.charlottecommunities.net I don't have any property or financial interest near a road or train station.
But this work needs ot be begun, let's hope we have the politicos who have the ___ to do it.
terry
Oh, just one other thing, many of the original transit foes told us no one will take the busses... well I think ridership has gone up somethingon the oreder of 1000% since they began offering better choices of routes in 1998.
Libertarian Lewis enjoys his subsidies as much as anyone, but would prefer they didn't exist and he had his gain to keep.
Railroads have had some of their land given to them by the government. Land grants, surveys, etc.
People who don't live in Charlotte actually pay for services they don't receive. If I commute to Charlotte and purchase anything here, I pay sales tax. The property tax of my work space/place goes to Mecklenburg, while I have to make up that difference in the home county. So the taxpayer's of Mecklenburg, are subsidized by the business taxes of those who don't live in Mecklenburg.
As most of the services used are for home, schools, parks, libraries etc, the balance is in favor of the political entity with more jobs and less people.
Balance that out and the taxpayers of Clt/Meck would pay more and those outside less.
The argument of commuters needing to pay more is a false one, put forth by politicians and others to find other ways to tax the populace.
Lewis
I was mentioning a real discussion in my previous post. Who would be interested in having such a meeting next weekend? Perhaps we can get 15-20 people to participate, hopefully from both camps (in favor and against mass transit). If interested, just send me an email to alextor00@yahoo.com
For the record, I have traveled extensively to Europe and I know first hand how useful is a good mass transit system.
In the same time, I also know that politicians do not necessarily see what is good for the public in teh long run. Reading more about light rail in Charlotte, i realize that the overruns were avoidable
Lewis, you could move your business to your home county and then you wouldn't have to worry about Mecklenburg taxes period. But then again, I'm sure your clientele base would be less outside the city, thus you probably reap more benefits by your Mecklenburg location than the taxes you pay for.
Anon's 3:35 & 4:39, The gas tax, you pay everytime you fill your tank, along with car taxes and any other tax you pay while driving are still far less then the benefit you get driving on a freeway, or any other road. Roads lose more money than any public transportation ride, but we all still do well to have them. Charlotte is nowhere near becoming a Detroit, Buffalo, cleveland or Pittsburgh, but we are becoming more like an Atlanta, Dallas or a Portland every day and I have no problem with that. The sooner we quit being a provincial Southern town and become more like one of America's great cities, the better.
Terry McDonald had made the best points so far on this board. face it guys, you ahve to pay to play in the big city. A majority of Charlotteans, native and newcomer, embrace this philosophy. Just look at past election results if you don't believe me. Those with the vision of a more metropolitan Charlotte are winning.
Anon 9:03...the original post did not say Charlotte was an urban hull, it said at the present tax and spend rates we will become one.
The newcomers to this area are escaping high tax regions, typically northern or midwest. They come to the Charlotte region and love the lower taxes. Then they begin to want all the stuff they had previously, but could not afford (ie: taxes they ran away from). So they justify raising Charlotte's tax rate by saying..."Well my taxes are still lower than when we lived in Buffalo". Well guess what, enough of this justification will get us tax rates comparable to the northern/midwest hull cities. It's not a matter of if, it's WHEN.
I can do better things with my own money than the government could ever do with it.
You people just don't get it. Me , Me, Me is what you are all about. Lets see them stop the gas tax totally and you people pay the FULL toll for you to drive on the roadways. It's all the same. The difference is I don't complain when all of my tax dollars don't go exactly to the things that are only what " I " want. I see the value in tax money serving all types of people and lifestyles. It's actually pretty funny to listen to you pointing fingers, calling it Socialist, when anyone can say the exact same of you.
I want roads, trains, school, police, sports, arts, theater, all of it. It's all good and necessary for a well rounded city.
You want only what YOU want.
Very laughable when you think about it.
You anti train/only road people are the true Socialistic Snobs.
To Anon 9:03 PM
You seem to have missed the point about business taxes and commuters.
Whether or not the business itself is better off financially to be located in Mecklenburg or elsewhere is immaterial.
Businesses pay property taxes according to where they are located. Residents pay property taxes where they live. Government services dependent upon property taxes will receive from both business and residents.
If the resident works outside his county, then the property taxes associated with his job go to the county where his job is.
All things being equal, this will tend to raise the rate where he lives and lower the rate where he works.
Thus those who live in counties such as Mecklenburg are already subsidized by those living outside the county. Again, this is because the business property taxes pay for services not used by the business but by the residents. Then those workers who go home to other counties must still pay enough property taxes on their homes to provide the services in their home county. This is without the added benefit of the tax base associated with the business they work at.
So to speak of a commuter tax adds insult to injury.
Lewis
Also,
Alex,
I think it would be fun for a group to get together to talk about the issues.
When and where?
Lewis
Terry Mcdonald your post was so “cute” it was very Mecklenburg. I am glad you solved all the problems by stating the fact that we must build roads and light rail. You may not realize that we live in the state on North Carolina. They decided what we can and can not do – it not just as easy as saying we need to build all these roads.
The issue is not Roads vs Light Rail. As some would have you believe. Even Mumford and The Mayor want those roads built. The state won’t let you have the roads!!!! The issue is that your gas tax goes to the capital where it is distributed all over the state and to other non-road projects and even non-transportation projects and what is left is sent off to build a bridge to so an elected official can get to Raleigh faster.
I am sick of reading comments from people who do understand the role of the city, county and state. But no Terry has a plan - we just need to find the will, way and money and the so problem fixed.
GR
Alex,
Count me in if there is a real discussion to be had sometime.
This weekend might not work however. More important things such as work and the NCAA tournament have my attention.
I would count my self in the pro-bus, anti-train camp if that doesn't confuse the "mass transit" issue too much.
What say ye all? Can we not join Alex in a pleasant evening of give and take?
UD? (It should be on a bus line, but if not, I'll give you a ride)FedUp? Mary? Ken Rogers, Tarhoosier7, Frank Burns (we haven't heard from him in a bit), Danimal? David McKnight? Terry McDonald, Cato? (especially Cato), GR?
Excuse me for only remembering Frank from previous blogs.
I'll buy the first round of a social evening, and the coffee if a breakfast. I wonder if we need a moderator? Or perhaps a bouncer!
Tolerance is the word. Diversity the game.
Lewis
Perhaps it would be appropriate to have the meeting in the Bobcat Arena, or perhaps Spirit Square just prior to the demolition (just kidding), or perhaps Mary could grab a conference room at the Observer.
I'm game.
UD
Yes, transit is socialist. Take a look at any dictionary's definition of socialism: it boils down to state ownership of the means of production.
A taxicab or Greyhound bus or a Camry is a capitalist means of transportation. A bus or a light rail system is a socialist means of transportation.
Ms. Newsom merely wants to engage in obfuscation, deceit, and name-calling. Either that or she doesn't want to admit that when she looks in the mirror she doesn't see Eva Longoria, but instead Leonid Brezhnev.
Tell me when and where?
Danimal
Alright Alex,
We have some responses.
Do you have a plan?
I appreciate the invite, Lewis, but the wife and I are moving into our brand-new Beazer-built home! We were a little short on the down payment, but you won't believe the deal they were able to swing for us.
God bless the FHA and HUD for making this possible while we didn't have to save a dime.
Dear Mr. Cato:
As Alex has yet to set a date, or respond to my email, even if he has responded to others and I'm not aware of it, I don't know that moving will interfere.
So perhaps after the movers are settled in?
Alex?
Lewis
is this really happening?
GR
See what you started, Mary - now this Cabal is intending on meeting face to face - Count me in! (but only if Lewis leaves his dueling pistols at home)
Well Alex???
Has (s)he decided otherwise?
How about 1 April at Freedom Park?
Bring your own refresements.
Some one else pick the exact location and time.
Lewis
To any who are interested in hearing an uncontested expert speak on this subject, please go listen to the 3 o'clock hour of Jeff Katz's show from 3/13 on the WBT website. Professor David Hartgen of our very own UNCC gives a very cogent picture of what we are doing with transit.
I know for some of you that will be a difficult thing to do (WBT being the root of all evil, I know), but it is good information.
Rick,
It should be noticeable to you that facts will make no difference to those who support rail lite. Truth be told, facts are not of interest to those who are personally or politically motivated to something for which the symptom expenditure is only a vehicle.
Notice the upcoming CMS bond vote.
Suburbs will once again be shortchanged in order to rebuild older schools for political reasons. Even though the rebuilding is a waste of resources which could go into the classrooms to improve educational results, the facts will not interfere with the waste. The fact is their is no relationship, unless slightly negative, with rebuilding schools and educational results.
So with it rail lite. The fact it won't decrease congestion and is a waste of resources will not affect those who have something to gain from the wasteful expenditure.
Lewis
Lewis,
As usual, I agree. The reason I gave my tongue-in-cheek excuse above for not wanting to go to a debate or meeting is that very few minds are changed at such events. And to be fair, mine likely wouldn't be either - so it's a bit of a breach of good faith to participate as if it might.
Any intellectually honest formal debate regarding rail would have to begin with at least two stipulations (others may have more suggestions): (1) That building all rail lines as planned will have nothing more than a negligible effect on congestion. The Oberserver Editorial Board itself conceded this in an editorial some time ago. And (2) related to the first, the net effect on air quality and energy consumption is also likely to be negligible. As such, discussion of these issues isn't even necessary.
When pressed, the fundamental justification for rail is that it "provides choices." Fair enough. This frames the discussion neatly. Are the choices provided worth the cost? And might these choices not be had through other means, such as buses?
Did anyone else chuckle at the irony of the "At What Cost" editorial in today's (Sunday) paper? Please take some time to read it very closely. The arguements put forth in the editorial parallel the arguements of those apposing light rail. It another fine example of the mixed message from the Charlotte Observer. It's quite easy to see the Observer and the heck-bent, build-it-any cost train- supporter's agenda: subsidies are only good for things which they agree on, whether the deal has questionable financial merits. The hypocrisy if truly amazing.
Ken,
I had the same reaction. The Observer has put a lot of energy into putting the Google and Dell deals in a poor light (not that I disagree with them). But I can't help but wonder what their reaction would have been if either company had been considering, oh, say, South Boulevard instead of the Triad or the boonies. They probably would have expressed some misgivings and paid lip service to being more prudent in the future. But in this case, since both companies are global technology leaders, their ultimate position would have likely been that Charlotte would be foolish to pass up the chance to lure them here. But just this once.
Y'know, world class and all that.
Ken and Cato,
Didn't see the editorial staff comments, but through the years have found said staff to generally be self-serving, short sighted, hypocritical, inconsistent and mean.
None the less I occassionally find their essays entertaining and enlightening.
Cato: so far as a get together, the idea would seem to be to enjoy some give and take with people who seem to enjoy a bit of give and take.
And your bit about the house went right over my head until 2 days later.
Lewis
what a bunch of losers, all of you. go back to living with mommie and playing dungeons and dragons. Leave the heavy lifting and big boy decisions to us. We make them often and without hesitation.
old-school downtown booster organzation. figure out which one smart guys.
Anon 2:50...terrific reply. Your rebuttal was very well crafted and had substantial facts to back up your cogent and thoughtful conclusion. It's the typical response from those who cannot deal with the facts in a discussion. So please, do tell, was it OK to subsidize Google and Dell? If not, why is it OK to subsidize a known economic negative called light rail. Pretty simple premise actually. Do tell....
Anon 2:50 You said: "Leave the heavy lifting and big boy decisions to us. We make them often and without hesitation."
Anonymous = Avoiding responsibility for your statements.
Heavy lifting - hardly. As it is heavy, you seek government to force others to pay for your projects. This is called taxation. Projects where typically you only had to control 5 votes.
I'm only impressed with your lack, as KR pointed out as well.
I'm impressed.
Big Boy Decisions? Yeah, that is the problem with you thieving liars - you take my money to buy your version of Viagra (arenas, light rail) to make yourself feel "big." Guess what? Still can't make it out...
US President Tim Kalemkarian, US Senate Tim Kalemkarian, US House Tim Kalemkarian: best major candidate.
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