Monday, May 14, 2007

South End bridge? Wake growing too fast?

Still mad that the pedestrian bridge over I-277 that was to have paralleled the light rail/trolley tracks got scrapped? Then attend an open house Tuesday, 5-7 p.m., to hear about other connections being talked of between South End and uptown. More info here.

Staff from the city and a consultant are looking at several ideas, including a pedestrian and bike path to be built on the I-277-Caldwell Street Bridge, as well as capping the freeway. The idea to cap the freeway has been around since the Center City 2010 Plan, as a way to create land for a park to connect uptown with South End and Dilworth.

Don't laugh, several cities have put roofs atop freeways and created parks. The meeting's in Room 267 at the Gov Center uptown.

Could too much growth hobble Wake County? See what the Raleigh N&O has to say.

Also in the Capital City, Raleigh City Council on Tuesday will consider adopting permanent year-round water restrictions beginning this summer. Other N.C. municipalities with similar year-round restrictions include Cary, Greensboro and Fayetteville.

The Washington Daily News in Eastern North Carolina's Washington County (county seat Plymouth) reports on efforts there to pass a land-transfer tax, and the N.C. Association of County Commissioners' response to the state Realtors' contention such a tax would slow growth.

And finally, here's an idea that's long overdue for Charlotte: Help increase the number of affordable places to live by relaxing the out-dated zoning rules against garage apartments, granny flats and other so-called accessory units. Here's architect Roger K. Lewis from the Washington Post on the same, courtesy of Planetizen.com.

85 comments:

Cato said...

Absolutely in favor of accessory housing. I've always thought that it's a great way for a neighborhood to get a little economic diversity - but under the discretion and supervision of property owners rather than some government run Section 8 type program.

My enthusiasm may also be waxing because I just learned that the mother-in-law will be visiting...for a week. So the idea of having a separate quarters is particularly appealing.

Anonymous said...

I would love to see the cap park happen. I wonder if Trump and Ghazi could help move it along with their projects (maybe even possibly fund all or part of it?)

Clayj said...

"Could too much growth hobble Wake County? See what the Raleigh N&O has to say."

Could too much growth hobble Mecklenburg County? Don't bother checking the Charlotte Observer... they never met a growth they didn't like. (See also: Jim Black, light rail proponents, CMS bond issue, arena, NASCAR Hall of Fame, RETT, etc.)

Clayj said...

Anon @ 5:42: I don't know about Ghazi, but Trump's philsophy seems to be that if you can't make money off it, it's not worth his time. He might include a park as part of one of his projects, but I don't think he cares too much about his name being attached to something that can't earn him a buck.

Anonymous said...

But the amenity of having the park could help him earn more money. It could help him furthur market his project and even raise his price point. They would have to weigh the cost benefits.

Oh, and get over the whole arena/light rail thing. First of all mass transit is a way to handle sprawling growth. Second of all, we need things to do around here and the arena is a great amenity.

Anonymous said...

You mean The Donald wants to make a profit. GASP? What will all the liberal hand ringers do to get that stopped. It's against all that is good and proper to actually MAKE money off of people!

We had better get a caravan going to Ralegh and find a way to tax that profit right out of the Don's wallet. Maybe we find a good gov-co subsidy to park his money in....

Clayj said...

"Second of all, we need things to do around here and the arena is a great amenity."

Explain that to Jerry Richardson and everyone who bought PSLs for the Panthers. He and they (and I, since I own PSLs) funded the stadium with very little public funding requirement. The arena, on the other hand, was basically a $300M gift to a billionaire. Don't know about you, but I don't think we need to be in the business of giving huge sums of taxpayer money (or their equivalent) to people whose net worth is already 10 digits long. Bob Johnson should have paid for the arena himself, and 57% of the populace agreed when we had a vote about this.

Back to the freeway cap park thing: If you can get Donald Trump to pay for it, be my guest. But again, I don't think he'd be willing to finance something like that since the financial upside would be minimal at best (and at worst, he'd lose a ton of money on it).

Anonymous said...

I could care less how it was paid as I am just glad to have the arena. By the way, it wasn't paid for through property taxes. Unless you rent a car or a hotel room on a regular basis, you really have no need to complain. A lot of people believe it affected their property taxes and when I told them otherwise they turned red with embarrassment. It is built, get over it, move on and enjoy the many events that it hosts (most that would of skipped here without it).

Clayj said...

"I could care less how it was paid [for]."

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Let's have light rail, and free (or nearly so) bus service, and new schools in parts of town where they're not needed, and a plastic rocket, and a pony! It's cool, because someone else will pay for it all. I don't care where the money comes from. (Yes, most of us know that property taxes aren't being used. It's a principle thing.)

But hey, no money for additional police officers, or for more staff for the DA's office, or for keeping the lights on on I-77, or for cleaning up the trash along the side of the road. Uh uh.

[rolls eyes]

Anonymous said...

The lights and the trash are the STATES issue, not the city. NCDOT is responsible for the lighting and trash pick up on the interstates. I am pretty sure the money needed for the DA's office is also the states responsiblity but I am not positive about that (I know the state always short-changes the Charlotte area and if they gave us the money we needed we wouldn't have these problems you complain about).

And with the schools - well, the bonds were voted down, and now it has gotten more expensive and it isn't going to get any better. So what do you do? You use light rail and the arena as excuses and frankly I and a lot of other people are tired of listening to your bologna.

Anonymous said...

It's the principle? Who do you think you are? It doesn't AFFECT you at all. You have no reason to complain about it. If Charlotte has so many problems why do you bother living in the city limits or Mecklenburg County?

Clayj said...

"The lights and the trash are the STATES issue, not the city. NCDOT is responsible for the lighting and trash pick up on the interstates."

Yes, but part of the problem here is that the city (and its government) spend too much of their time trying to think up new ways to tax us for stuff we don't really need and not enough time trying to get the state to do what it needs to do here in Mecklenburg County. I mean, Jim Black was Speaker of the House, and we STILL couldn't get the money we deserve back from the state! Talk about failing to use your home-field advantage. (Of course, we all know now what his REAL business was in Raleigh.)

"I am pretty sure the money needed for the DA's office is also the states responsiblity but I am not positive about that (I know the state always short-changes the Charlotte area and if they gave us the money we needed we wouldn't have these problems you complain about)."

Again, Jim Black was Speaker of the House, and we STILL didn't get our due funding for the DA's office. Is it in the Democrats'/liberals' interest to try to keep us underpoliced, understaffed at the DA's office, and with streetlights that don't work? Please explain this to me.

"And with the schools - well, the bonds were voted down, and now it has gotten more expensive and it isn't going to get any better. So what do you do? You use light rail and the arena as excuses and frankly I and a lot of other people are tired of listening to your bologna."

The school bonds were voted down (and will be voted down again) because CMS has demonstrated the fiscal responsibility of a crack addict who wins the PowerBall, and many people want them to demonstrate some responsibility before handing them a huge chunk of money.

And light rail and the arena are symptoms. They're just two instances where local government has barreled ahead with a project with little or no regard for what it will really cost and with little or no thought as to whether it was something that government should even be involved with in the first place.

As far as the "other people"... well, don't you find it interesting that Mary's recent post about taxes drew as much criticism as it did? And don't you find it even more interesting that most people on your side of the argument are too scared to sign their names to anything? I know I sure do.

Clayj said...

"It's the principle? Who do you think you are? It doesn't AFFECT you at all. You have no reason to complain about it. If Charlotte has so many problems why do you bother living in the city limits or Mecklenburg County?"

Yes, the principle. Unwilling to risk their positions by just going ahead and doing it, they asked us for permission. We (57% of us) said no. And then they went ahead and did it anyway. I don't know about you, but if I tried to pull a number like that on my folks when I was growing up, I'd have gotten my hide tanned. When you ask permission and are turned down, the proper course of action is not to do it anyway.

And I live here because, for the most part, Charlotte is a pleasant place to live.

Isn't it funny that it's always the people on the left who are telling the rest of us to leave if we don't like how they're screwing things up?

Who do I think I am? I'm Clayj. Who are you?

Anonymous said...

Are you going to bet your life that no property tax revenue ended up in the areana?

Part of the deal for the new arean was funding from the old arena...that was paid with property taxes. The city basically gave the old arena away below market value.

So, get off your high horse with the tourist tax paying 100% of the arean...it's simply not true.

Anonymous said...

I'm so glad that you enlightened liberals are here to tell me what to do with my money. I was actually thinking about using it to bettering the life of my family. Thank you for setting me straight. You deserver my money more than me...

waaaah goo goo gah gah said...

With all your complaining you would never think Charlotte is such a pleasant place to live. I mean, aren't you just taxed to death???

Anonymous said...

Well Jim Black is corrupt and now he is paying for his mistakes. You really think that idiot was going to do anything for us? And I still don't see what that has to do with the city government??? The problem is the state is run by a bunch of good ole boys like yourselves who couldn't give a damn about the urban areas in this state.

Anonymous said...

I actually don't think we are screwing anything up. Ask 90% of people and they will say Charlotte is a much better place now then it ever was and there is a lot more to do. If it weren't for the city council, this place would still be Podunkville.

Anonymous said...

"waaaah goo goo gah gah said...
With all your complaining you would never think Charlotte is such a pleasant place to live. I mean, aren't you just taxed to death???"

Charlotte is a very pleasant place to live. That I why I relocated from the midwest. However, I see no need to make it like the cities in the midwest that have high crime, high tax rates and high unemployment rates. We are living a good life now, but at our current spending spree we will get there faster than you think....

Anonymous said...

olWell midwesterner let me advise you that Charlotte is growing and has been growing for awhile. We are becoming a major city. You should of researched that before you came here. Nothing stays the same and change is inevitable. Other than the school system and some infrastructure issues (which are mostly the states responsiblity), I see Charlotte continuing to change for the better (and many other places are facing these same issues - we are not alone). The only way this city is going to fail is if you short-sighted people continue to try and kill anything good that may happen here. Places need amenties to attract people and business. You want continued growth and opportunity? I know I do - for myself and for my children. If not you can go back to your ailing midwestern town or wherever you came from.

Anonymous said...

Anon...I did my research and I moved here for those reasons and more. I also agree that we need amenties...but limited to public amenities: parks, rec systems, etc.

However, our local governments are now dabbling in large scale entertainment that should be provided by the free market. This is alarming, as billionare sport teams are pitting city vs city against each other, with big tax dollars on the line. So each city taxes tourism and it eventually costs everyone, including business travelers (ie: you must travel for business or liesure). No one escapes these, as they have spread across the country like wild-fire.

For example, Bob Johnson is billionare. The city provided him an arena and footed some operating expenses (police security). You can say that it was paid with hotel/motel tax. But from a principle point of view, why did we have to subsidize a billionare?? If the region was truly a good investment, Bob would have made the investment without the subsidy.

Another example is the new baseball deal. The county commision is rebating the Charlotte Knights $8.0 MM in property tax revenues and provided them a $1/yr land lease. The property is worth multitudes more in value, but we gave it away. Any pay-off for this will not be seen for decades. Of course businesses will do well, but not the tax payer.

The worst example is the NASCAR HOF. The France family played Charlotte like a fiddle and made us envious of 3 other locations that everyone KNEW would not be selected. The net result: big cash subsidy from Charlotte.

Mind you, I am also against business subsidies as well. The Google deal was one of the worst one-sided deals in NC history. The tax payers in Lenoir will be living with that mess for a long, long time.

I just can't see the logic in funding something private markets would do anyway. We get played and the tax payers (local or tourist) foot the bill.

BobR said...

clayj said:

"and with little or no thought as to whether it was something that government should even be involved with in the first place."

clay we have been over this before in the myth busting thread. There is no such thing as urban land development without govt involvement (thanks to the necessity of public utilities and zoning). The construction of the LRT is highly speculative but no different than city, state and fedearally funded development of roads out to the burbs. No one knew if those roads would attract drivers and no one knew if suburban development would work. Suburban development was not a free market process.

The result of this speculation was one of the most successful social engineering projects of all time (a project which was entirely subsidised by urban residents). I am not suggesting that the LRT will have an impact of the same magnitude of suburban growth but it is not impossible that a significant change in urban form from 10-20 years of LRT operation.

I want to be clear that your statements that "govt should not be involved in development" are your personal opinions. I certanly respect your right to an opinion but it is important to point out to other readers that your opinion is contradicted by the past 52 years of US urban development.

Clayj said...

"I want to be clear that your statements that "govt should not be involved in development" are your personal opinions. I certanly respect your right to an opinion but it is important to point out to other readers that your opinion is contradicted by the past 52 years of US urban development."

Well, of course anything I write here is my personal opinion. I cannot speak for anyone else, and there's no reason for me to lie. So thanks for stating the obvious.

And I never said that government shouldn't be involved in developing certain things. There are absolutely some things they should be involved in, because there are some things that private business usually has no interest in: For example, sewers, roads, police, prisons, etc. What government does NOT need to get overly-involved in are things which are not NECESSITIES, like sports arenas, which are traditionally the domain of private enterprise. (Now, before you trot out the football stadium, allow me to point out that the city's investment of land and infrastructure upgrades has already been made up for by property taxes and increased collection of sales taxes. The arena, conversely, is a continuing drain on the city's finances.)

Oh, and just because things have worked a certain way for the past 52 years doesn't make that the best way... and your statement assumes (incorrectly) that the local powers-that-be always do the right thing. Virtually any time they talk about raising taxes, they're about to spend money wastefully. If they did their jobs correctly, they'd make sure that the money they HAVE is properly spent on what we NEED, not what we WANT.

BobR said...

“What government does NOT need to get overly-involved in are things which are not NECESSITIES, like sports arenas, which are traditionally the domain of private enterprise. (Now, before you trot out the football stadium, allow me to point out that the city's investment of land and infrastructure upgrades has already been made up for by property taxes and increased collection of sales taxes. The arena, conversely, is a continuing drain on the city's finances.)”

OK Clay, you established in your last post that some city subsidies for entertainment are OK (the land gift to the stadium) while others (the arena) are not. You made your distinction based on the ability of the project to pay the subsidies back. It appears that you feel its OK for govt. to be involved in property development when it can turn a profit (I thought this was the domain of business?)

It is certainly not impossible that LRT can pay its own way via increased property values along the line:

From the myth busting thread:

lets say 20,000 parcels are within 1 mile of the line. If people see the line as a amenity (that would possibly get them to work faster or cheaper than in their buicks) then property values along the line will increase. If the value of each parcel increases such that they pay an additional $800 / year in property tax then the $371 million in repaid in 20 years. While the $800 / year figure is steep it can be obtained via increases in density and intensity.

Yes, a 20 year payback is speculative and lengthy but as a bonus this process does exactly what you have been demanding in other threads, the people who benefit most from the line pay for it via higher assessments.


“Oh, and just because things have worked a certain way for the past 52 years doesn't make that the best way”

Clever retort! Now that you mention it, its probably reasonable to assume that we have nothing to learn from a half century of urban development [/sarcasm off/]

Anonymous said...

I <3 Bob.

Finally someone with a brain.

Anonymous said...

Bob rocks!

Clayj said...

"OK Clay, you established in your last post that some city subsidies for entertainment are OK (the land gift to the stadium) while others (the arena) are not. You made your distinction based on the ability of the project to pay the subsidies back. It appears that you feel its OK for govt. to be involved in property development when it can turn a profit (I thought this was the domain of business?)"

Bad analogy, Bob. The gift of the land for a stadium to the Panthers was a single event, not an ongoing process: In other words, here's some land which we already own and will give to you for you to build a stadium on. The city planners KNEW FOR A FACT that that investment would recoup itself within a matter of ten years, and it already has. Not to mention, the value of the stadium land was less than $50M, if memory serves, so it was a SMALL investment on the city's part. With the light rail, we're talking about over $600M already with no end in sight, and it's quite likely that the light rail, like the rest of CATS, will be a money sink (i.e., costs more to operate than it brings in). Any property taxes collected in the vicinity of the light rail won't be used to pay for the light rail, and you know it; they'll be used to finance other stuff. The light rail will NEVER be a self-supporting system.

Speaking of the arena, it has been a complete gift of charity to Bob Johnson: Unlike the stadium, where we paid only for the land (which we already owned, so no actual expenditure of money there) and for a few streets to be rerouted, in the arena's case we coughed up the land; the arena itself; the rerouting of the streets; AND the property tax, because Bob Johnson doesn't actually OWN the arena, the city does. (Remember how well that worked out last time? Where are the Hornets now? Where are the Baltimore Colts now?) He gets all of the revenues from the use of it, and we pay all of the expenses to operate it. The Panthers pay property tax on their stadium, AND they pay for all of their own expenses.

Government does not need to be in the business of spending $300M on arenas for billionaires, period. If he wanted his ego stroked, Bob Johnson could have found some suckers somewhere else... but unfortunately we have a bunch of them here.

As for you Anons: You're hardly worth thinking about. At least Bob has the decency to sign his name.

Anonymous said...

So Bob, to get a $800 property tax increase, the value of the land would have to increase $177,777. Do you REALLY think this will happen in 10-20 years? Doubtful.

Sorry...Bob does not rock.

Lewis Guignard said...

BOB R says: "The construction of the LRT is highly speculative but no different than city, state and fedearally funded development of roads out to the burbs. No one knew if those roads would attract drivers and no one knew if suburban development would work. Suburban development was not a free market process."

Oh really. Farm to market roads were built by varios entities, mainly for economic purposes. Developments such as Dilworth, were at one time suburban, and still may be considered such, but were dependent upon main feeder roads, which weren't built for the development.

The development I grew up in was built by a private developer, who also put the roads in, which he connected to main feeder road which was long existent.

If you look at the old main roads, people first built along those, then as farms etc were sold to developers, they built are used farm to market roads, many of them gravel. I am not aware of many roads being built to enhance suburbia.

The state then often took them over, then decided to pave them but Not for suburbia. Charlotte does the same thing.

In any event, most suburban areas were developed privately, including the roads, starting in the late 40's, then heavily in the 50's. They were a reflection of the common man's ownership of cars.

And Clayj, the give away of land for the football stadium is just as bad, if not worse than RailLite. It was directly for a single business.

To argue that government investment is recouped through higher taxes argues government should provide services based on return of investment. NOT SO!

Parks, police, courts, roads, jails, have no ability to produce income, there is no return which is monetarily measurable, yet these are services needed by the public, thus we institute governments among men to provide them.

Any function which needs as one of its rationalization a return on investment - euphemistically stated as higher taxes on a select group - is inherently a wrong function of government.

Pete said...

No, Bob doesn't Rock.

The pie-in-the-sky assumptions made regarding land price appreciation don't accurately gauge ridership, safety, convenience, etc.

Pete

BobR said...

Clay has nicely given us his guidelines for his approval for a subsidized urban development project. So lets use his numbers to make some comparisons with the LRT:

The city provided land to the Richardson’s worth, according to Clay $50 million (fancy accounting btw: “which we already owned, so no actual expenditure of money there” – does this mean you will give away your house since you already own it?).

Capacity of BofA stadium = 73,258
Games per year = 9 (I may be off by one or two here)
City subsidy per ticket per game (over 10 years, Clay’s acceptable payback time) = $7.58 per ticket

S Blvd LRT:
Daily ridership (per cats) 2008 estimated 9,100, 2025 estimated 18,300
Lets estimate average daily ridership for Clay’s 10 year payback period to be 12,000 per day.

Cost (per cats) = $462.7 million

Taxpayer subsidy per rider (over the same 10 year payback period) = $10.65

I can only assume if we get this figure down to $7.58 then Clay will be on board with LRT in Charlotte. Is this true Clay?

BobR said...

"If you look at the old main roads, people first built along those, then as farms etc were sold to developers, they built are used farm to market roads, many of them gravel. I am not aware of many roads being built to enhance suburbia."

alright Lewis, I'll conceed that some (but not all) of the roads which connect suburbia to the city predate the suburbs. And I'll even conceed that the capacity increase on all of these roads was warrented from existing demand. But even if we ignore roads as a govt investment in property development we still must deal with the city providing sewer and water to these communities. Where did this handy bit of necessary urban infrastructure come from and how were they paid for?

I am not saying its right for govt. to be involved in property development, I am saying that they have been for many years, and given the degree to which property development is regulated (and dependent on things you say the public should provide) then it is nieave to image that the govt will not somehow be involved.

BobR said...

Lewis said: “Any function which needs as one of its rationalization a return on investment - euphemistically stated as higher taxes on a select group - is inherently a wrong function of government.”

So how to you rationalize the existence of the suburbs?

From the myth busting thread:

lets do some very simple math (the sububrbs I am referring to here are all within Mecklenburg county):

Cost of a sewer line per mile = $10,000 (an arbitrary figure for demonstration purposes)

Number of households served by 1 mile of sewer line:

suburbs = 100
Center city = 1000 (higher density from smaller lots, multifamily units etc.)

Cost of sewer line per house:
suburbs = $100
city = $10

Do suburban residents pay more for their sewer? No. The excess $ paid by center city residents subsidies the greater capital cost of sewer lines in the burbs.

This math works the same way for
1) water
2) police
3) fire
4) roads
5) school transportation
6) solid waste

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jenny Craig said...

What is RailLite? Is it some kind of diet drink?? I've never heard of it???

Clayj said...

Bob, I do agree with you a bit that people in the suburbs do have a lot of their city services (sewer, etc.) subsidized somewhat by those in the more densely-populated core. In part, this is true because we don't charge developers impact fees for extending services to areas where they build houses. Impact fees would slow growth (which I think is a good thing), but they'd also make things a bit more equitable.

On the stadium vs. light rail thing, though, once again you have the wrong end of the stick. You do understand, I hope, the difference between a one-time grant (the stadium land) and making a commitment to an ongoing process (light rail funding, the arena) which has no foreseeable end and will continue to consume money, rather than produce it?

BobR said...

Clay said: “You do understand, I hope, the difference between a one-time grant (the stadium land) and making a commitment to an ongoing process (light rail funding, the arena) which has no foreseeable end and will continue to consume money, rather than produce it?”

I do see the difference Clay, and I agree with your point. Taxpayer subsidies that are open ended are things that should not be taken lightly.

The point where you and I differ is in the belief that LRT is not worth the investment. You are on record with your well stated belief that govt. should not be involved in any type of development (with the one exception noted above, if I had season tickets I would feel the same way). I believe that the LRT can (over the long term) change landuse patterns along the corridors in such a way that will attract business and residents to a more sustainable urban environment. By sustainable I mean an environment that is less dependent on increasingly expensive gasoline and less vulnerable to productivity losses from increased congestion on the arterials into employment centers. I realize that this outcome is far from certain but my view is that the project can succeed if the city is serious about zoning changes along the corridors.

My post above (from 11:17) is intended to illustrate the less direct constant and ongoing subsidy of suburban residents. Currently suburban residents pay less than their share for urban infrastructure. I don’t see how this subsidy is any different from the per rider subsidy for the LRT. While I understand that the suburbs are a necessity for urban growth (they are the source of all future low-cost housing) they also contribute disproportionately to the urban problems of declining air quality and congestion. Development along the LRT corridors should be less damaging to the urban landscape.

How about this as a compromise: Lets end the suburban subsidy I discussed above. Once the folks in the burbs are paying the true cost of the infrastructure then rates for city dwellers can either decline OR city dwellers can choose to put that money towards the LRT project. I would be very happy with this more equitable arrangement.

BobR said...

Lewis said: “So Bob, to get a $800 property tax increase, the value of the land would have to increase $177,777. Do you REALLY think this will happen in 10-20 years? Doubtful.”

I agree Lewis, $177,777 appreciation on a single family parcel will be difficult to achieve (but not impossible, look at price changes on McDonald ave where SFH prices increased by much more than that from 2005-2006, a portion of this CAN be attributed to the line).

The price increase becomes feasible when you look at the potential to convert quite a few brownfield parcels along the line (which are currently appraised at near zero values on the tax roles) into high density communities. Lets take the 3030 South project as an example. It was an abandoned contaminated site. It is now a nearly sold out condominium complex with approximately 100 units (I am guessing). The typical unit appears to have a tax value of $189,900 according to Polaris. This is $18 million in new tax value. Yes, I know it is impossible to attribute all of this increased tax revenue to the LRT but given the lack of amenities in the area and the advertising that the complex spend a large amount of $$$ on the LRT clearly played a very important role in this change. I know of 7 other projects along the LRT that will create larger increases in tax value.

When looking at making abandoned and poorly used parcels to more productive uses the $177,777 figure is not that difficult to imagine in even five years.

Uncle Dennis said...

As the kids on South Park would say, "We are all full of crap!"

It is incredible to read these responses to one another as if there was ONE WAY to do anything, and each of us knows that one way.

It is the responsibility of a government to raise funds to pay for the growth and general welfare of the populace it governs. It is the responsibility of our elected officials to evaluate the needs, current and future, and make decisions on projects, and the funding of those projects.

Any of us here who are so passionate about our position would have a better chance to change things by appealing to those elected officials directly, and not try to convince others with cherry picked truths, and in some cases, just myths.

UD

Anonymous said...

UD,

If we were serious about changing things, we would be addressing our elected representatives, who wouldn't be listening to us because we don't, as a group, donate enough to their campaigns or influence enough votes, to make a difference in their election.

So we are reduced to writing various levels of comments on Mary's blog.

SO!

I have played hard at the political game, and, being semi retired, find this an amusing way to aggravate, be aggravated, entertain, and be entertained.

I hope no one who writes here actually think anything posted will make a real difference.

And for Jenny Craig - being facetious are we? If not, it is a sarcastic rendering of the words associated with the letters LTR.

But for you, I'll buy you any drink you wish and let you imagine it is whatever you wish it were, and diet is good!

Lewis

Clayj said...

Bob, I think the most direct and equitable way to end the subsidy of suburbia by those of us in the core of the city (I live Uptown) is to begin imposing impact fees on ALL new residential development. Each new housing unit (individual condo, apartment, duplex, townhouse, house, etc.) would be required to pay a fixed impact fee, said money to be used to build new schools IN THE VICINITY OF THE RESIDENCE (not across town), sewer lines, water lines, etc.

As I've said, this will slow growth, and it will raise demand (and prices) for existing units since there would be no associated impact fee when buying one of them. But looking at Charlotte now, don't you agree that our rate of growth has become unmanageable? We need time to catch up.

Lewis Guignard said...

Clayj, time to catch up.??
Tell that to the lenders and developers. I paraphrase, if not quote, Ken Thompson: "Wouldn't you rather have the problems associated with growth instead of the ones associated with decline?"

It is this line of thinking which leads downtown and the chamber, and which will cause them to avoid slowing down for fear going slower would cause decline.

Impact fees.
To build a seat for a student in public school costs in excess of $15,000. This is just one part of the infrastructure needed which is associated with new housing.

Legally impact fees are based on the house, not its value, so they have to be the same for the $90,000 house and the $750,000 house. The question is then - how much do you make it?

Please note - developers building places like Highland Creek put in their own roads, sewer lines, offered land for schools (which is finally being used).

Assuming the main trunk lines for Highland Creek were not paid for by the development does not mean the taxpayers paid for them through taxes - CMUD is paid for with user fees. This includes operations and debt service according to the Charlotte Budget - CMUD dept. - available online.
Basically, like the airport, it is a stand alone business, overseen by City Council, but not depending on taxes for operations and capital.

So BobR, the infrastructure of a new suburb costs me how much, as sewer lines cannot be used for comparison.

BobR said...

I appreciate you guys engaging this line of thought but I think you missed the fundamental point of my initial post. My main point was to point out the geographic inequity in payments for urban infrastructure. Since there are clearly higher capital costs to provide water and sewer (per house) in the burbs but everyone pays the same rate for service suburbanites are getting a ‘free ride.’ While I feel that impact fees would be a good thing their imposition would not fix this inequity. Since impact fees are applied at the same rate in the burbs and the city then suburbanites will still be paying for a smaller portion of the capital costs required for basic services than city residents.

Lewis: the distinction between user fees and taxes does not strike me as relevant in this context (especially since we have no choice but to pay for city sewer and water, if we don’t pay the house gets condemned). Yes, CMUD is a self supporting entity, but since rates are the same for all ‘customers’ city residents are paying a larger portion of CMUD’s operating costs. If CMUD operates in the black then lets lower rates for city residents.

I am sure these cost differences are small but the same ‘density surcharges’ can be found in many other elements of the urban infrastructure: police, fire, school transportation, solid waste, roads…. They add up. Because of these inequities I feel strongly that it is logically inconsistent to criticize the LRT because it requires a transfer of tax $ from the burbs to the corridors. These types of inequities are all around us but most of them benefit suburban residents.

caffeine addict said...

BobR,

Even though the rate is the same, don't people in the suburbs use more water? How many people in condos downtown are watering their lawns?

I don't see the free ride.

Anonymous said...

Bobr,

It seems you are making assumptions which should be supported by facts. Water, sewage, roads, etc you cite, then give us some numbers.

What of electric, gas, etc - suburban areas are more expensive, SO!

What do we prove by this line of thought? Should we all be equally expensive or costly.

Let us use inner city youth as a counter point. Building schools and parks and operating same for them is more expensive. SO!
What is the point here?

Perhaps you believe everyone should be taxed equally and consume an equal amount of government services??? Where then is my subsidized canoe?

Lewis

Bobr said...

Lewis,
I did provide numbers in my post from 5/15 (at 11:17am). I didn’t get the memo that the basic laws of physics had been suspended – connecting low density features to a network is always more expensive than connecting high density features. How about some numbers showing my reasoning to be flawed.

You ask: “What do we prove by this line of thought?” I had thought I had explained that already, mea culpa. I’ll restate my rationale:

This suburban subsidy constitutes a government subsidy of a specific sub-group of people (and type of development.) This directly counters your statements like:

“Government is the legitimized use of force. When it is used to take from one group to give to another it is stealing. “ (from the myth busting thread). So is it not reasonable to assume government is allowing suburbanites to steal from center city residents like ClayJ? (I would really like this wealth transfer to stop. Wouldn't you?).

Or (from the same post): “The fact government is involved only means legalized force is used to make people pay 1/2 percent of their purchases to others.” You are clearly outraged by the ½ cent sales tax which (in your view) provides a subsidy to riders. Why not be equally offended by the suburban subsidy which I have discussed? Are you a beneficiary of this subsidy and that makes it OK? (kinda like Clay’s PSL which he used in defense of city subsidies of stadium construction)

Or Clayj’s statements (from the myth busting thread) "Another problem is that the city doesn't need to be in the business of artificially creating demand for certain land"
I wanted to illustrate that the government does this (at huge scale) already. The suburbs are not simply a product of a free market process, their development required the government to devote taxpayer resources to create the necessary infrastructure. I am not defending the process, I am simply stating that it is hypocritical to bash the LRT project for this while these suburban subsidies get a pass.

So if we are talking about numbers, where are yours refuting my discussion of increased property tax revenue along the LRT as a means to recoup capital costs? (see my post from 5/15 at 4:49pm)

Lewis said...

Bobr,

I have stated many times I detest government at all levels. Stealing is stealing, whether through the force of government or otherwise.

However, that is a theoritical argument which has no application in today's world, still it is the basis of many of my statements.

Accepting the fact government does exist for some very practical reasons, one also must accept the functions of government are not equal in taxation or spending.

To say suburbs are subsidized as the basis for an argument to rationalize RailLite is specious at best.

As I have stated before, almost every individual recipient of government largess is receiving more than they pay due to business taxes.

Your numbers, made up, about sewer and water mean nothing.

To advocate government investing in something while making the assumption it will get a return on investment due to incidental higher taxes is the exact antithesis of the function of government.

Government should provide services because they are needed and will not be provided otherwise, not being profitable, so no capitalist is going to invest.

To pretend a 'recoup' of 'investment' is a reason for government action gives government the cover of a business. It is not and arguments to that end support growth of socialistic and fascistic programs.

Lewis

BobR said...

So which is it Lewis? You have said that when LRT is operated at a loss then it is a waste of taxpayer resources and when it is operated at a profit it is speeding us towards socialism. Since every investment a city makes (roads, sewers or schools) is going to impact property values. How should we approach new road construction when it will clearly increase some property values and decrease others? I suspect your response will be that the purpose of the road is to increase the mobility of society and this goal outweighs any changes in the value of adjacent parcels. But can’t we ascribe the same primary purpose to the LRT?

While I generally agree with your theories on the role of government I think that transportation is one of the things that a government should provide. Thankfully businesses lack the power to tax the public they are unable to capture the accessibility benefits (which are reflected in the value of the parcel) that accrue from the construction of a transportation artery (be it LRT or a highway). I still don’t see the problem with the city allocating revenues produced from improved accessibility (increased valuations) to pay for some or all of the costs of the LRT (the tax increment financing strategy that has been successfully applied in many other urban areas). Please enlighten us.

I stand by my ‘made up’ numbers – why can’t you show how they are wrong?

Lewis Guignard said...

Bobr,
First for example: "Daily ridership (per cats) 2008 estimated 9,100, 2025 estimated 18,300
Lets estimate average daily ridership for Clay’s 10 year payback period to be 12,000 per day.


Both are estimates - your language.
If the anon posting of a previous blog was yours about sewer line costs the language was : Cost of a sewer line per mile = $10,000 (an arbitrary figure for demonstration purposes).

But to your recent assumptions.

I have never said if Raillite is operated at a loss it is a waste of taxpayer resources.

I have said it is a waste of taxpayer resources because it doesn't produce the ridership per dollar other modes of transportation do. Buses are much more efficient. I advocate buses, and contrary to some of my associates, believe they should be cheaper to ride, not more expensive. I would advocate free if there were a way to avoid the joy riders.

The subsidies I always decry have to do with businesses who benefit due to projects which could be described as pork barrel directed towards businesses, not geographic areas. I have listed the NBA, Panthers, construction companies working for CMS, RailLite associated businesses and the like.

I do not generally consider individuals who consume a particular government service as subsidized, even though technically it may be true.

The fact that one demographic group consumes more than another of a particular government service is, as I have stated previously, to be expected.

Parents consume public school.
Old people consume Social Security and Medicare.
Poor people consume Medicaid and Welfare.
Drivers use roads.
Lawyers use courts.

Etc.

None of this gives us a reason to use the fact that taxes will increase for a certain demographic group or geographic area as an excuse to spend tax dollars.

Again, government services should exist only because the service is needed and will only be provided by government, not because there is a profit incentive.

To do otherwise leads towards socialism and facism.

Your argument that the higher taxes paid by those who live near some government project, in the particular case, RailLite, justifies the project because those who live near and thus benefit are paying for it, is only a rationalization, an excuse if you will, for the project. It gives it no legitimacy as a function of government.

(by the way is the R for Raiford?)

BobR said...

Lewis, I’ll say again, my estimated values were used for illustration purposes. They were intended to show why it costs more to connect low density populations to a network (be it sewer, water, garbage, fire, school bus or police). If you can show me that density does not impact the cost of providing municipal services then I will recant – but my money is on the fundamental laws of physics holding up.

“I have said it is a waste of taxpayer resources because it doesn't produce the ridership per dollar other modes of transportation do. Buses are much more efficient.”

This is true in the short term. However, we diverge in your unwillingness to take a longer view of the impact of LRT. LRT has been shown to increase land values along its route, we are seeing this already in Charlotte (see my previous post discussing 3030 South and this article in today’s business journal for examples http://charlotte.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2007/05/21/story1.html )
Bus routes (being less fixed and slower since they must run in the congestion which exists) do not provide the same impact in property values. If we take this new property tax revenue into account then it is possible that LRT can provide transit at lower overall cost to the city than buses. I understand that you fear this will lead our fine, banker-controlled, town into the evil grasp of socialism. I prefer taking that risk to not doing something to change Charlotte’s unsustainable reliance on the automobile.

Anonymous said...

Clayj,
You really need to move from uptown. You would fit much better in Mint Hill or Monroe. I live uptown as well so I can help you move out.
I've met many people since moving uptown five years ago. None of them anything like you. What the hell are you doing up here ? It's a Blue city for Pete's sake.

Anonymous said...

You people kill me. Why do we need all this stuff ? Because it makes the quality of life in Charlotte better. Why do you travel and visit other great cities ? Because they have great things to do, that's why.
Do you really expect Charlotte to stay a podunk little town forever with nothing to do except listen to the crickets ?
What a bunch of boring people. Charlotte is becoming more and more urban every month. You wont even recognize it in another 10 years.

Get over it or move away.

Clayj said...

To the last two Anons: Why is it the liberal mantra that if anyone doesn't like being subjected to higher taxes that your suggested solution is always for them to go somewhere else?

I like living Uptown. I like being able to walk to Panthers games, and restaurants, and bars, and other Uptown stuff that doesn't exist in Matthews, Mint Hill, or Monroe. I'm not married and I have no kids, so why would I want to live in suburbia?

Those of you who keep suggesting that I and those like me leave, keep on doing it. But I suggest you don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Anonymous said...

Then get over it Clay. Charlotte is becoming more liberal whether you like it or not.

Anonymous said...

The "real" city of Charlotte has always been a Dem/Lib city. Clayj is just out of place in the city. He needs to move back out to the burbs where he fits in with the moaners, groaners and complainers.
Get it Clay ? We don't want you here. You are not welcome so go home.
Nothing worse than a hick in the city.

Clayj said...

Love to see that good ol' fashioned liberal intolerance. "If you don't like what we're doing to Charlotte, then get the f*** out." Right?

One big difference between me and you is that I will never command you to leave town because I disagree with your opinions. It's funny how liberals criticize conservatives for having a "if you're not with me, you're against me" attitude, when it's the liberals themselves who are the worst offenders in this regard.

The fact that you all continue to post anonymously shows just how spineless and cowardly you really are.

Anonymous said...

Clayj,
Funny, spineless and cowardly "if you're not with me, you're against me" attitude. Maybe the posters just want to remain anonymous because of all the wacko's out there in this day and age ? Like the crazy ass rednecks that threaten to "kick your ass" when you don't agree with them, on many of these posts.

I read it as they were simply telling you that you seem very unhappy with your town so why not move to where you would be happier.

Seems to me you Republicans are the ones who always name call and get your panties all knotten up when things don't go your way. Then you try to turn it around every single time and blame it on the Liberal.

The previous poster just stated the facts as he or she sees them. It looks the same to me as well and I wouldn't consider myself a Liberal.
You simply seem unhappy.........so why not move.
Stop torturing yourself living among people who are nothing like yourself.
And by the way you are constantly trolling these blogs looking for an arguement just shows what type of person you really are.

Get a life man. It's too short. Be happy.

Rick said...

Anon,

You wouldn't consider yourself liberal, and a fish doesn't know it lives in water.

It's funny that you feel free to criticize Clayj for "trolling", yet as an anon you can troll all you want while hiding among all the others.

You show that you are blinded to reality (as most liberals are) when the posts that Mary removes consistently come from the left side of the spectrum and the only person to ever threaten to "kick someone’s ass" was some fearless anon who threatened Lewis one time. Of course, Lewis promptly challenged the goofball to duel.

Who knows? Maybe you are right - no, correct.

Anonymous said...

Let's see Rick, Clayj has compared those who disagree with him to North Koreans and Lewis has compared them to thieves. It seems to some of you that it's OK for conservatives to call those that don't agree to their narrow points of view 'liberals', or even 'cowards' or some other derogatory name, but when one actually has the gaul to verbally fight back and put holes in their preceived infallability, they resort to calling out typos, anons and more venomous name calling, etc. What a cop out.

Since being a liberal means being compassionate to those who are different and/or less fortunate than ourselves, plus being open to new ideas and way of doing things, consider me guilty as charged and proud of it. Also consider me excited about the fact that Charlotte is becoming less conservative and more metropolitan and progressive every day. I'll take becoming the next Atlants, Boston or San Francisco over being the next Lubbock any day.

Charlotte has chnaged. It costs more to live here than it used to and the population has become more diverse in race, language, sexual preference, ideaology, etc. Some people obviously don't like that, so I, and many others, have suggested that they move someplace where they feel more comfortable. Sometimes that is easier than adapting to the changes around them. It also would make them happier, as well as those around them.

Danimal

Anonymous said...

Perfectly put.

Rick said...

Danimal,

Nice dodge...

You avoided the point that it is the left sided posters who can't hold it together and routinely have their comments removed.

Lewis, Clayj, and myself for that matter, have never had anything removed as far as I'm aware.

As for terms like coward, communist, socialist and thief...all I can say is this forum usually involves discussions about politics, and politics is a rough business.

Remember the old saying...

"If you can't stand the heat...'

I will give you one thing. I actually don't have a problem with true liberals as you described them. Remember, as I’ve said before, my wife is a social worker and one of my best friends is a Democratic Party precinct captain.

It's when people start calling themselves "progressives" that they usually begin to sound nuts and start giving true liberals a bad name.

Anonymous said...

Rick,

"If you can't stand the heat...'

Hmmnnn ........
Sound sort of like "If you don't like it then move".

Sort of what the last few Conservative posts were crying about.
Now THAT is too funny.

Rick said...

Touché...

Anonymous said...

It's all a bunch of crap anyway. Arguing and complaining. It's beautiful outside. Screw this blogger crap and enjoy the summer.

Anonymous said...

I'm with you on the 'progressives' Rick. Some of those 'liberals' freak me out too, especially when I try to buy them a burger. I can assure you that most of us Democrats have as much disdain for them ad I'm sure some Republicans do for their brethern on the far right who cann any R's that disagree qith them, "RINOS".It sort of makes me wish that the Green and Constitution Parties would gain some traction and siphon off some of the freaks that give both the D's and R's a bad name.

Danimal

Anonymous said...

So now if you are pro environment, GREEN, you are a freak ?

I am about as green as they come. I don't think there is anything else I can do aside from moving into the forest to be any greener and live in a city.

But I do not push my ways on anyone. If they seem interested I will tell them just how easy it is to make a big difference. But that's about it.

I will vote for smart enviro politics and I will do what is right for me.
I may think it is what everyone should be doing since it is so damn easy

.............. but I would never say "you have to do it".


So............... am I a "freak" ?

Anonymous said...

I'm talking about the Green Party, Nader Raiders, etc. THOSE FREAKS

Anonymous said...

Just a couple of thoughts.

When figuring the costs for utilities for different areas, you need to check for the nearest utility plant. All sewer lines do not run to downtown (uptown?) as well as the water lines. I bet I'm alot closer to my WWTP than any uptown resident is to theirs.

Also, the size of the sewer line for 100 people is alot smaller than a sewer line for 1000 people. Therefore, the cost is much higher.

So when comparing costs, I would like that to be factored before making any blanket statements.

Are sewer costs really 10x greater for suburbs than city? I would like to see where these number come from.

As far as property values going up along the Rail line. This is true- and all the middle class people that live there will be priced out of their houses. Is this what compassionate liberals do?

We state our names so others know who is writing. You can pick a false name but just keep using it so it is easier to track all the anons. If you cannot come up with something, I'm sure someone can pick something out for you that will fit your writings.

Thad

BobR said...

"When figuring the costs for utilities for different areas, you need to check for the nearest utility plant."

OK, then using this logic we should allocate higher costs for suburbanites who are further from the WWTP.

Why is the concept of density so hard for people to understand? Fewer houses per mile = higher costs of service provision per house. This is true for police, fire, garbage, water as well as sewer.

Anonymous said...

Hey Bob...using your density logic, why is it so hard for people like you to understand the high cost of LTR vs ridership?

According to CATS, the south line will haul 9100 people annually. That is only 1.1% of the regional population. If you want to take the transit system with the full LTR package(~60,000/yr), its only 7.5%. So, we are spending $9.0 BB on LTR for 7.5% of the population.

Does not sound like a good plan based on your density logic, BobR

BobR said...

"So, we are spending $9.0 BB on LTR for 7.5% of the population."

how much are we spending on Independence? What about 485? for what percentage of the local population?

"Does not sound like a good plan based on your density logic, BobR"
Huh? The LRT has the potential to substantially increase densities along the line. This will, in turn, reduce the cost of providing municipal services (freeing up more money for the continued subsidy of suburbanites) and increase ridership over the long term. Tell me what road project has the potential to make urban development more sustainable?

Anonymous said...

Bob,
There are more than one sewer plant. Get out and meet the real world. Downtown is not very close to any WWTP and that was my point.

As far as your question to the percentage of people using Independence- it reminds me of something I heard a long time ago-
It it better to keep your mouth shut and hide your ignorance rather than speak and remove all doubt.

Thad

BobR said...

Thad, please work on your research skills before spewing personal insults.

From the CDOT web site (http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Transportation/Traffic/Traffic+Counts.htm)
The traffic count at Independence at Sardis is 56400 per day. As a percent of the metro populaiton (1.4 million) this is 4% of the population.

Anonymous said...

I would also like to point out that the next section of Independence Boulevard to be widened, from Albermarle Road to Idewild Road is going to cost $177.4 million for 1.4 miles.

Anonymous said...

Bob,
Sorry if the description matches. a guilty conscience needs no accuser.

Let me get this straight.
56,400/day for 1.4 mil-Independence

(Average daily ridership (2025)-LRT)
18,300/day for 1.4 mil- Southline

(Giving you the benefit of the doubt and using the 2025 number)

Now I need help. Without doing the math, looks as though Independence wins in percentage of population per use.

Thad

BobR said...

Thad, you are a genius.

Cost to widen Independence from 277 to Matthews $1.9 billion (from extrapolating the previously stated widening figures to 15 miles)

cost per driver (if amortized over one day) $33,687 (this ignores initial construction costs)

S LRT cost to construct $400 million
cost per rider (if amortized over one day) $21,857

As a bonus the LRT may generate extra revenue for the city via increased tax values along the line. I doubt the widening of independence will have the same effect (it will simply speed the exudus of taxpayers into Union county -- thus reducing overall revenue)

Anonymous said...

Bob,
I thought you said "The traffic count at Independence at Sardis is 56400 per day. As a percent of the metro populaiton (1.4 million) this is 4% of the population. "

I thought you were comparing the count of traffic per day with population for the two areas.

If you want to get into cost per mile, that is completely different.

Life is too short for me to do cost per mile comparison completely so I leave that up to someone else and I'll analyze what they measure. (I do hope they count maintenance into the equation)

I'm not counting your numbers- not apples to apples- no offence.


Thad

Anonymous said...

Hey BobR...I noticed you left the price tags out of the debate (...clever).

LTR = $9.0 Billion
I-485 = $1.0 Billion (...estimated and probably high).

Still sounds like a bad deal BobR.

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