Thursday, June 07, 2007

Raising teens: City v. Suburbs

I got this e-mail from a planner-type I know who has lived in bigger cities than Charlotte, though he's been here for a few years now. He referred me to this article by Mark Hinshaw, an urban designer in Seattle: "Why Raise Your Kids in the Suburbs?"

But my planner friend, who raised HIS kids in the suburbs, also sent along some of his own thoughts and observations. If you're like most of us, raising your own kids in the 'burbs, you may enjoy his reminiscences and conclusions.

As a kid, I was raised in urban neighborhoods on Cleveland's westside and close-in suburbs. We walked nearly everywhere and took the bus when it was too far.

As a result, we got to know a variety of people and have a range of experiences. As an adult parent, I (and my wife) raised our kids in the suburbs where they had their own yard, a small circle of friends and we had to drive them everywhere. Despite my wife's and my best efforts, looking at our now-grown children, I believe that their suburban upbringing deprived them of many things, including how to interact with unfamiliar people and out-of-the-ordinary experiences.

Our society today suffers from many maladies. To me, an underlying problem is people's inability to relate to others who are different, and the fear and distrust this engenders. The old urban neighborhoods where people sat out on their front porches, walked and rode public transit helped people relate to and experience other people, including those who were different. Today's suburban developments with their dependency on the automobile have given us years of people driving around in their steel cocoons (cars) and retreating to their backyards (instead of their front porches), and as a result have helped create an America where people have trouble relating to others, particularly those who are different.

In the last two suburban neighborhoods (in Cleveland and Charlotte) I have lived in, I hardly knew my neighbors. Some I only saw when they drove by in their car.

On the flipside, something I have experienced firsthand in Boston, Seattle and Cleveland is what I affectionately call the "back of the bus (or streetcar)" phenomenon. People who are regular transit commuters tend to take the same trip to and from work each day. Over time they get to know each other and develop friendships.

In Boston on the Green Line/Beacon St. there was a bunch of us who regularly talked and exchanged information and experiences. In Seattle and in Cleveland on the express trips I used, a regular group of people (myself included) sat in the back of the bus and developed into a real group of friends, that resulted in us actually doing things together socially. While I have not had that same experience in Charlotte (my own schedule and limited service keeps me from regular transit usage), I have heard of it happening on some of CATS routes (i.e. Route 61 from the Arboretum, some Route 77x trips).

Public transit usage brings people together by definition.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that getting more people to use transit will solve all of society's problems. It will help, though.


Anonymous said...

When I have kids, I would much rather raise them in the city. The suburbs sound all nice but I would hate for them to become one of those conforming, sheltered little people. To each his own.

Anonymous said...

I will raise my kids with a bit of both, just as I was. There is a comfort and tranquility to life in the suburbs, but it also important they see and interact with urban life.

TheGodFearinFiddler said...

I'd love to raise my kids in the city - but unfortunately the city has too many problems - bad schools - bad neighborhoods - high taxes.

Which is why I'll be moving out of Mecklenburg county as soon as I can. If I found a nice city with urban life - low crime - reasonable taxes - decent schools - I'd love to live there & raise my kids.

Anonymous said...

TheGodFearinFiddler makes a good point. Living in the "urban" city has far too many negatives. Crime, higher taxes, more expensive housing for lower amounts of square footage, lousy schools.

Name me an "urban" neighborhood in Charlotte where I can get a good house for $200,000 in a good school district. It doesn't exist. Anything good costs $400,000+. Even a good condo/townhome costs that much these days.

Drive down to South Charlotte or Union County or over the border into South Carolina. You can get a nice house in a safe neighborhood for under $250,000. Good schools, plenty of space, etc.

There is simply nothing about a bus ride that can outweigh the advantages of move out to the suburbs.

Anonymous said...

I agree about the urban thing, but not about the mass transit thing - at least for charlotte. All kinds of people in Boston ride mass transit - in Charlotte it's the dependent class. I wish this wasn't the case, but it is, and has been for as long as I've been here ( 1971 ).

I don't think light rail will be any different, but I do hope I'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

Maybe we should ask the kids themselves.

From KidsVoting results, November 2006.

"Which of the following would most benefit the Charlotte regional economy? (question for grades 6-12)"

Light rail system 34%
Urban baseball stadium 17%
Center City arts 28%
NASCAR Museum 21%

Chris said...

I moved to Boston from Charlotte, and didn't even consider moving to the suburbs. How much house do you people need? I prefer to spend my days going to parks and playgrounds and other places rather than roaming the climate controlled halls of some giant house, and my son playing by himself in the back yard.......god, it sounds so depressing. I grew up in Charlotte's suburbs (Mint Hill) and I would never wish that on my son.

Anonymous said...

City. I am sure most of you who prefer the 'burbs have never lived in a city. Don't knock it 'till you try it.

Anonymous said...

I have lived in urban areas in Cincinnati, Nashville and now Charlotte. I love being close to a downtown area and all it has to offer. However, I have also had my car broken into a few times and one car stolen out of our driveway (in Plaza Midwood). I also can't turn on the evening news without hearing of shootings, carjackings, etc. that happen not too far from our home.

So, as much as I agree with the author's remarks and would love to raise my child in a more urban environment, I don't know if it's worth the hassle and worry. I would rather not live in the suburbs, but I'm becoming more open to the idea.

Anonymous said...

My wife and I live in an old Central District 'hood, raising teens in public schools, house price was way less than 200k. They both make the honor roll regularly and have good friends, most are college bound from what they tell me. Yeah, the city can be dangerous if you hang out in the wrong places or around the wrong people-same as the 'burbs. The "bad schools" comment is a pet peeve of mine. If everybody sends their kid to private school who will be responsible for leading the way in turning public schools around? A smart, confident and well adjusted kid with involved parents can combat a struggling school. I feel good that I'm part of the solution and not a hyprocrite and our kids have a different view of the Charlotte community than their sheltered counterparts.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the above poster regarding mass transit being for the dependent.

I used the mass transit system in Rhode Island as a student. It was the most humbling experience of my life. I was practically the only paying passenger, everyone else using their state issued transit pass.

I was too busy protecting myself from the ingrates on that transit line to form any friendships.

Anonymous said...

The last time I road the bus I got my pocket picked and lost $20 and my wallet.

Forget it. I would rather drive my Toyota Prius and listen to the radio and my CDs.

Rick said...

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that the two examples provided of CATS being a good social scene are the express routes that service the suburbs?

It appears now that the choo-choos might be in jeopardy, using social engineering as a justification for mass transit comes out.

I wonder if the transit tax would have passed in 1998 if the real reasons had been out there then.

Chris said...

Aren't roads social engineering? By building roads to an area, we are encouraging people to move there. If we didn't build roads, people would live much closer together. One subsidy allows for one lifestyle, another allows for a different type. I fail to see the difference. If you are so opposed to "social engineering" and "subsidizing development", I encourage you to repeal statedgas taxes, and the portion of property taxes that pay for city roads. Then we will let society sort itself out without any sort of government influence. My guess, you'd be living much closer to work.

happy suburbanite said...

While I would agree that Charlotte's individual suburban neighborhoods have until recently been way too isolated simply because of the way they were built (no connection, no nearby retail, etc), I do not agree with those who paint the suburbs as such bleak, unfriendly places. My suburban neighborhood is a wonderful place to live--kids are everywhere playing, riding bikes, etc. Walking around the block can take twice as long as it should because so many neighbors stop to talk.
When we first moved here I was not happy with my suburban situation (although I'd always lived in the suburbs in other locations, most were centered around a public school and had walkable shopping and village centers nearby--it was easy to meet people and was not so car centered). At that time the kids from this neighborhood were being bused eleven miles away. Many did not attend public schools or went to magnets so there was little commeraderie among kids, who were going in all different directions. Parents did not know each other because there was no common bond of a school and we were always in the car running across town. And traffic from the 'burbs to anywhere near uptown was horrendous.
Two things changed, both of which I know many on this blog disdain--we stopped busing so our kids could go to school close to home, and I-485 opened.
Both of these have made a huge difference to "feel" of our neighborhood. Almost everyone attends the local public schools and with the interstate came nearby walkable retail (as a neighborhood we worked hard to make sure the retail was local, not regional, so as to be compatible with our area).
Also, contrary to popular opinion there is quite a bit of diversity in my suburban area--it's just not the old Charlotte model of black and white. We have neighbors and friends from all over the world, and my kids, who are now all out of college, are able to function quite well in the "real world".
I think it would behoove us all to be a little less judgemental about where our fellow citizens' choose to live.

TheGodFearinFiddler said...

Bottom line is I'm much more concerned for my child's safety than anything else. I lived in an Apt Complex of Monroe Road, I loved it there. I loved being close to everything and having the ability to walk places.

But I would never live there if I had the choice with a kid. It's simply not worth the risk. Now I live in an outlying area of Charlotte (still Meck) but have had property stolen from me 4 times and have been vandalized. I'm sick of the crime in Charlotte and thats why I want to move to the suburbs.

And just because someone lives in the suburbs doesn't mean they live in a huge house 20 miles from anything else and drives everywhere in a hummer.

Here's the bottom line - let people live where they want to live. If you want more people in your city, make your city a better place to live in!

The only decent neighborhoods in Charlotte cost too much for me to live there.

Rick said...

Actually Chris,

I'd telecommute more than I do already.

Meg said...

While there are benefits to living in the suburbs, there are also many benefits to raising teenagers in a more urban setting. To start out with, one of the best public high schools in Charlotte is an urban one. In fact, I know many children who were pulled out of private school to be sent to Myers Park High School

Also, the closer one gets to uptown - or even Myers Park (the neighborhood) - the easier it is to find pleasant "hang outs" within walking distance. And I cannot stress enough how important it is for teenagers to have places to socialize that they can walk to. It relieves the parents of having to cart their older children around and allows the kids some feeling of independence. I grew up in an area of Charlotte that,while it's hardly the suburbs now, was clearly suburbia when it was built 50 years ago. There were no parks within walking distance, nor was their a mall or a movie theatre. The only place was Cotswold - and not until I was old enough to cross Providence Road on my own.

So, as far as where teens should be raised, my vote goes to the city.

Anonymous said...

It totally cracks me up to hear you idiots refer to them as choo choo's.

What little children.

Pathmaker said...

When watching the evening news or reading the newspaper crime stories, count the crimes that occur in the urban core v. the outlying areas. Crime happens everywhere. But according to CMPD statistics, the city's lowest crime area happens to be the Center City. The crime hotspots tend to be East Charlotte and West Charlotte -- not in the center of Charlotte.

My kids go to CMS schools located 3 miles outside the Center City and are receiving a top notch education. AG Middle School recently fielded a top "Odyssy of the Mind" Team in an international competition and won. Sure you can find bad kids in any school, but CMS as a whole offers every kid the opportunity to suceed. Every top college in the country has admitted CMS graduates. Could they be better? Of course. But anything can stand improvement.

Lastly, much of the more recent suburban development is returning to a more traditional (and sociable) urban pattern. Places such as Baxter Village and Berkdale are becoming walkable and some of the new stuff even offers meaningful employment opportunities. But there remains the danger of raising kids with little exposure to those who are different. And that portends societal distrust and isolation which in the most extreme cases places out in events such as the Columbine school (CO)massacre.

Anonymous said...

My child's teacher told him the other day that during the Great Depression kids could walk to the store for their parents "because it was safer back then". Without undermining the teacher, I informed him that it WASN'T safer back then; people just lived in neighborhoods like ours instead of sprawling suburbs.

Here's something to chew on: my son makes the 3-minute walk to the store for me all the time. Believe it or not, an intelligent child can walk down a city street in broad daylight without being hit by a car, stolen by an axe murderer, or given cancer by pollution. You teach them not to talk to strangers (and look both ways), put a few dollars in their pocket and send them on the way. But that kind of idyllic lifestyle can ONLY come in the security of traditional neighborhood, regardless of how big or small the city is.

In a decent city neighborhood, there's a peace of mind that a thousand iron gates could never account for.

Anonymous said...

Any good urban neighborhood, that is actually safe and in a good school school zone, is outrageously expensive. For the most part. Except the the area south of Charlotte, most of the city is going down the tubes.

Charlotte is on it's way to becoming the next Detroit.

Cato said...

I guess I'm a grumpy old man...

I grew up in a small town, and the interesting thing is, it offered a lot of the same advantages about encountering difference that many big cities do. The key reason was that there so few schools in the city system (three elementary, one middle, and one high) that you didn't have the stratification that you see in larger cities, where disadvantaged kids are all warehoused on one side of town, and on the other, they're picking out BMWs for their sixteenth birthdays. There was frequent mixing across class and racial lines. We weren't holding hands around the campfire, but it beat the hell out of the friction found in a lot of bigger cities.

As for the design element, I'm not so sure that our lack of urban design put us at any disadvantages. Our neighborhood, while in town, was of the auto-oriented suburban style that dominated 50s and 60s development. But we made use of those wide streets for evening stickball (some variant of the real thing - we improvised some rules). The big backyards and wooded lots were perfect for flashlight tag, the fronts for football. And we regularly used local public parks as well - often the best pickup basketball games could be found there. Plenty of social interaction, some with characters as colorful as any to be found in Washington Square.

Of course, this was before kids were so mercilessly overscheduled and were actually expected to entertain themselves. Also, families moved less - which meant that parents were more familiar with the local kids, which deterred a fair amount of mischief.

If it were possible to make a good living in a small town today, I'd probably live in one. I suspect that their decline has a lot to do with the loss of American manufacturing jobs.

Anonymous said...

Interesting how some become soo pasionate about things. I for one think it's great that we have choices. If you love the burbs, great, if you love the city, great. There's room for all. Really, we could all be living in Iraq.

For me, I live in the city, Uptown to be specific. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the burbs at any price. Kids or no kids.

Sure there are issues, but there are issues everywhere.

Anonymous said...

This is refreshing to see so many reasoned comments from both urban & suburban dwellers......the postings on these Observer blogs, esp. when it comes to topics like light rail, bring out the worst in some'd think there's gonna be a civil war between the I-hate-Mecklenburg-ers & the center city boosters. I'm of the latter school: we love our modest little neighborhood of Commonwealth Park, 5 min. from Uptown but tucked under huge shade trees, & we're delighted w/ all the vibrancy that's come to the whole Plaza-Midwood/Morningside/Commonwealth area.....and more to the point, completely happy raising our family here --- but my work takes me into plenty of neighborhoods in "the burbs" and at the right time of day, like early evening, there's as much interaction out on the street w/ kids & grown-ups as anywhere. The truth is that it's not as much of an either/or issue as it's painted, and more than anything else, it's the sense of community the residents build that matters most. Certain aspects of planning help set up those opportunities (mixed zoning for nearby walkable stores, or houses that address the street rather than hide from it).......but in the end it's about the effort people make more than anything.

Clayj said...

I think both city and suburbs can both be good environments for being a teenager... because it goes far beyond that simple categorization.

I moved all over the place when I was growing up, so I've lived in small towns, medium-sized towns, cities, out in the country (miles from anything resembling a town), and even in foreign countries (Germany and England). In each place I lived, even though the circumstances were wildly different, we always had a good time living there. We'd adapt to whatever there was available to do.

In each case, though, there was a constant: Our parents. I think if you have good parents who encourage you to do your schoolwork, get exercise, and have fun in your spare time, like I did, you can have a good childhood, all the way through high school, pretty much anywhere.

Anonymous said...

Way to go Mary. More lame anti-suburban drivel. There's nothing wrong with being in the city, except that you keep trying to cram it down our throats.

We still live in America, right? This hasn't become Mexico yet, has it? It hasn't become some liberal nirvana where everyone blends in so well together that we don't even notice each other anymore, has it? That's what cities are.

Before we had kids my wife and I lived in the city. It was fun, in a selfish "I can do anything I want any time I want without offending anybody," kind of way.

But then we grow up. (And don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being a "big" kid; I wish I could go back to those carefree days sometimes, so I hardly pass judgement on those who stay). But like other liberal bullshooters, you try to tell others what's best for them.

Shut up already.

There's nothing in a city for kids except for loneliness and trouble. Only selfish parents would force their kids to live somewhere where they're just another strange face on a crowded street walking by people they don't know.

You can paint suburbs as lonely places, but they're not lonely at all compared to cities.

You need to retire your column. It's way beyond being useful anymore.

meg said...

In response to all those making the point that most of the affordable inner-city neighborhoods in Charlotte have bad public schools, I'd just like to say that that's a solvable problem. Move into a neighborhood you can afford to give your kids the benefit of being in the city and work with other parents to improve the school. Just because a school isn't outstanding now doesn't mean that it can't be at some time in the future.

Anonymous said...

"There's nothing in a city for kids except for loneliness and trouble. Only selfish parents would force their kids to live somewhere where they're just another strange face on a crowded street walking by people they don't know."

Anon 9:55 p.m --- your opinion is so far off the mark from tons of research, anecdotal evidence & my family's own personal experience (which is made up of both kids & grownups) it seems pointless to defend "city life" to you. I think both choices can be rich ones, but I hafta say it's views like yours that make us "city folk" paint suburbia with a broad brush too often.

Anonymous said...

Meg, most parents are not willing to risk the education of their children on the concept that they "might" improve the school by moving there. "Here comes the neighborhood" is not a common occurence.

It is silly of you to even suggest it.

Native Charlottean said...

I swear, most americans are such wusses these days. I've been in every part of Charlotte, heck mostly in West Charlotte and I've never felt scared or frightened in any part of it. In fact, I've even walked the streets in places like Flint and Detroit and managed to survive!

Suburbanites can go to hell. I dont want my city to become another Atlanta.

Anonymous said...

The most humorous thing is anti-suburbanites, to steal an earlier blogger's description, think of themselves as city folks.

A). There isn't enough housing in Charlotte for enough people to truly get a city living experience.

We're such wannabes. Charlotte is a great place. It's on its way to being even better. But if someone would have had the foresight to put affordable housing in Charlotte 20 years ago, sprawl might not be a problem at all and we might have the luxury of true city living.

B). What little housing there is in the city is horribly overpriced, and therefore primarily occupied by anti-nuclear family types.

C). It's a joke for someone to try to say AG Middle School or Myers Park are in urban areas. Give me a break.

Drive out to the biggest of the suburbs (Matthews and Huntersville, I suppose) and tell me what those places lack that Charlotte has.

The answer is very little.

I think there's a much higher percentage of people now living in the suburbs who've lived at some point in their lives in an urban setting than city dwellers who've lived in the suburbs.

There's a reason for that.

Anonymous said...

I think there's a much higher percentage of people now living in the suburbs who've lived at some point in their lives in an urban setting than city dwellers who've lived in the suburbs.

That is so true. I lived the urban life in Chicago. I road the bus system and used the elevated train.

Anything in a good location in Chicago is outrageously expensive now. Even by train, everything downtown is one hour away with train connections.

Based on experience, there is no way I would want my children living anywhere in "urban" Chicago.

Is this what Charlotte aspires to be? That is insane.

happy suburbanite said...

I would agree that Myers Park High and AG Middle, great as they may be, hardly qualify as "urban" schools. Nor does most of the housing around South Park qualify as "urban"--side streets are very suburban (lovely, yes, but not urban with small lots and front porches). In fact most lots in areas described as "wonderful and close in", are really very similar to many farther out suburban lots. One does have to wonder why it is okay to have a large lot close to town but selfish to have a large lot farther out.

Several bloggers have referred to the Charlotte neighborhoods that they grew up in as "suburban at the time but now urban". That's what I can't quite understand about this faux "urban versus suburban issue". Surely everyone recognizes that as a city grows there are always going to be new suburban areas which at first will seem far out and detached from the city. But as time goes by they will be linked to the city by growth.

In many older cities most suburbs have grown up around actual towns (like Matthews or Huntersville). I think that relieves some of the tensions between urban and suburban, because the 'burbs aren't governed by the big city. Thus no one is constantly comparing services, schools, policies, etc, and pitting one side against the other. Because we don't have many small towns surrounding Charlotte, much of our suburban growth is within Charlotte's far reaching municipal boudaries. And that, plus a county wide school system, has set us up for much of the us versus them stuff.

Anonymous said...

to Happy Suburbanite:

Agreed. I don't get the point of the comparison. I think it comes down to how parents want to raise their kids.
It's their choice.

As for Charlotte, you're right. It is hardly an urban city at all. Some wish more than anything to make it urban but the only urban parts are the wards downtown and few blocks outward from that.
All else is suburb...

Anonymous said...

inside 277- Urban
outside 277-Suburban
I like suburban.


Anonymous said...

Mary, you are one of the most divisive and hateful people in Charlotte. Everything you write and stand for is about dividing people and creating barriers. Grow up already.

Anonymous said...

"I would agree that Myers Park High and AG Middle, great as they may be, hardly qualify as "urban" schools."

If you live Uptown, your kids go to Myers Park and most likely Piedmont Open Middle. So this nonsense about horrible inner-city schools needs to stop. The worst schools in the county are in the western and northern suburbs, NOT the center city (which really has exceptional schools compared to their inner-city peers in other places).

"Surely everyone recognizes that as a city grows there are always going to be new suburban areas which at first will seem far out and detached from the city. But as time goes by they will be linked to the city by growth. "

This is true, but modern suburbs are intentionally built to prevent linkage to the rest of the community. Expensive communities are gated, literally shutting out the rest of the world. Even middle-class neighborhoods usually have only one or two entrances, and are located in areas as distant from other houses as conveniently possible. The idea of neighborhood shopping is completely out the window, and many 'burbs don't even offer basics like sidewalks and bus stops to interconnect your home with the rest of the city.

I agree that people are free to choose whatever lifestyle makes them happiest. However, the style of suburb described above (the stereotypical one that gets railed against so often) has undeniably had a negative effect on our society as a whole. Enough ink has been spilled on that subject that I won't go on any farther, but really we're not talking about simple individual preferences; we're talking about a social trend that affects everyone.

happy suburbanite said...

I'm not arguing that urban schools are inferior to suburban schools. First Ward in uptown is a beautiful school and it certainly qualifies as urban. In fact most of our truly urban schools have been either rebuilt or refurbished, contrary to popular opinion.

I also would not disagree that many newer suburban neighborhoods have not been built in a community friendly manner. However, as someone noted, that has been changing and even neighborhoods that were once isolated are finding themselves connected through recent development.

I just don't find the stereotyping of suburbanites helpful or justified. No part of town has a corner on sainthood. There are good people and not so good people everywhere. For the most part I have found my suburban neighbors to be extremely involved in the community, both close to home and in the greater community as well.

My youngest son recently graduated from college and is home for a visit. Many of his old high school friends are sitting around my kitchen table tonight playing poker and reminiscing about "their youth". They all seem to be pretty well adjusted and successful young people. With proper guidance and support I think our children can grow up to be happy and healthy no matter what part of town they have called home.

Karina said...

The problem is that Charlotte does not have enough nice urban areas to satisfy those families that would prefer to live in one. They are either too expensive, too poor, or the developers are gearing the area to singles (center city/South end). One reason is that Charlotte was not that big a city until recently, so we don't have a big stock of Dilworths and Elizabeths.
I grew up in such a neighborhood in Pittsburgh which was very affordable (still is), safe and had good schools. I could walk to stores, shops, restaurants, and large parks. I can not overemphasize how much confindence this independence gave me when I was a teen. By the time I was 12, I was taking the bus downtown to meet my mother for lunch. I did not even feel the need to have a car until after college! At 17, I travelled to Germany on my own to work a job.

I wish I could give my teens this experience in this city - we don't even have regular CATS service. At least Charlotte is working on increasing the number of bike lanes - this can help make teens more able to move around without a car.

Anonymous said...

As more than one person has pointed out, there are benefits to suburban and urban living. No one refers to country living. Personally I find the difference between urban and suburban subjective. Dilworth was built as a suburban area. It is similar to Fort Sanders in Knoxville where I lived as a student at UT. Fort Sanders was better designed, having service alleys between the streets, but beyond that they are similar. For interaction between people those styles of design are superior in some ways to the suburban area I grew up in. However, watching my nephews grow up in Dilworth and comparing that to my own upbringing in western Mecklenburg, I can't see any real difference. My nephew's parents spend a lot of time transporting children in their Volvo to school and other events. They still drive to the stores and work.

Differently my cousin grew up in some high rise in Manhattan. That was urban. We don't have urban in Charlotte so far as raising children is concerned. That is as yet largely those without. Dilworth is close-in suburban as is Cherry. Each house has a yard etc. Neither is urban as they were built suburban and the city grew to enclose them.

Perhaps you might consider urban some of the projects, such as the one inside the inner loop at McDowell and the failed CityFair - another black mark for policy planners. - Mary probably supported that waste of taxpayer's money too.

So the argument seems to be about perception of smaller yards vs bigger yards.

Sure, Highland Creek has only two entrances, but Dilworth is very similar. You get to it from Park Road, East Blvd or South. It is cut off by the three and the creek. East is comparable to the main road in many developments.

The suburban area I live in now has 1 to 4 acre yards. Everyone has a garden, the children have plenty of room to play. Unfortunately, the density of children per house is low as it is an old neighborhood and the originals have not all died off yet.

No bus service yet, and choo-choos will never serve here.

Anonymous said...

Ahh. The good ole days. When people all lived in tenaments and played stickball in the streets. Rode the subway everywhere and took out Mrs. McGillucuddy's garbage for her.


Like a euology at a funeral, we wax nastalgic and remember mostly good stuff and forget the bad.

BTW, what awful suburb have you people lived in??

'Roaming the climate controlled halls' and 'playing the backyard by himself'??

We live in Union County and social life for our kids has never been better. There is more community between kids as well as adults than any other neighborhood I have ever lived in.

You fool nobody with the constant pitch for new urbanism and light rail. 85% of people survey by the Realtors last year preferred rural over urban. Same reasons as listed above. Less crime, grime, noise, and better schools.

If you resort to making friends on the back of a bus, you need to get out more often.

Lastly, calling people 'sheltered conformists' because of their zip code is a ridiculous stereotype. You can live at Trade and Tryon and never leave your tiny apartment and lead a dull life if that is what you choose.

Being 'urban' versus 'suburban' is a stupid label you like to use make yourself feel intellectually superior.

I enjoy all the culture and interactions of this and other big cities, I just don't spent my nights sleeping in a dumpster-fouled concrete ocean and wonder if my kids are going to be accosted by a homeless man at the neighborhood park.

Anonymous said...

Myers Park High School is 'urban'.

yeah right.

It's lily white rich kids and sons and daughters of investment bankers.

The last black student they had who wasn't on the honor roll they shipped across town as not to drag down the testing averages.

Good school? Yes. 'Urban'? I don't think so.

Anonymous said...

Mary, a common element in many of your blog posts and columns seems to be "us vs them" and "them" always seems to be portray and either ignorant or bad in some way.

Why are you such a horrible person?

Anonymous said...

Mary may be provocative, but she is not a horrible person for bringing up points that seem to bring out the worst in people on this blog. God forbid somebody is shaken a little because they have to think and back up their reasoning. There is so little of that, especially in this town.

As for me, I don't have kids, and if I did, I would probably move to the suburbs, but take them in the city often. Good schools and safe neighborhoods do take priority, but trips to street festivals, Discovery Place, plays, etc. make a child more well rounded and open minded as far as I'm concerned. Once they are old enough and street smart, I would be inclined to drop them off at the train station to ride into town, just like my mom did when she let me go into Boston.

As for the suburbs being safer, yes crime may be much less on the outskirts, but you might want to keep an eye open for excessive drinking, or drug use, at a neighbor's house. Those were always major forms of entertainment in the burbs among people I knew back in my school days. Aftereading some articles in the paper here, things seem no different today. You're not necessarily 'out of the woods' when you live 'in the woods'. Be mindful of that.


happy suburbanite said...

Obviously many suburbanites do take advantage of the city's cultural offerings for children, just as Danimal suggested. Teachers do not suggest that suburban children are culturally disadvantaged.

I am curious how this stereotype of the poor isolated suburban child, sitting in the house all day in front of the TV, came about. Of course there are some kids like that, but you can find them anywhere, city and suburb. When I think of suburban kids of think of neighborhood football, basketball, and baseball games (goes on around here all the time), rollerblading, bike riding, fort building, and just plain hanging out. I don't believe kids have as much freedom as we did--more stuff's paved over and traffic is worse--but they do seem to be socializing and having fun, just as I'm sure the more urban kids are.

Anonymous said...

What are you using as the defining difference between urban and suburban?

Anonymous said...

"We live in Union County and social life for our kids has never been better. There is more community between kids as well as adults than any other neighborhood I have ever lived in....Less crime, grime, noise, and better schools."

Give it 10 years. Union has been so overdeveloped that the farmers in the eastern part of the county can't even water their crops because of all the turf maintenance going on in Weddington and Marvin. Your taxes are going to go up exponentially because of irresponsible suburban development. Then I'm sure you're going to be off to the next county that offers you city employment at country prices.

"Myers Park High School is 'urban'.

yeah right."

Kids living inside 277 go to Myers Park. How much more urban a demographic do you want? Or are you subconsciously associating urbanity with black people? Hmmm...

Anonymous said...

For anyone who has ever worked with marketing products, "urban" is code word for "black." That isn't a negative, just a marketing term.

In this blog's particular case, I think someone said it earlier: inside 277 is urban; outside 277 is suburban.

happy suburbanite said...

The terms "urban" and "suburban" have certainly become loaded terms around here. If you will recall until recently CMS was being marketed as an "urban" school district, although it certainly did not compare to the urban districts of NYC, Chicago, Washington D.C., Philadelphia, Kansas City, etc. Those districts do not include far flung suburbs, as does CMS, which actually qualifies as metropolitan, not urban.

In our quest to become more of a big city the close in suburbs, even as far out as the Southpark area, are being referred to as "urban", even though, as noted in previous blogs, most of the subdivisions are decidedly suburban in lot size and house design.

When I think of urban I think of actual city living, not the color of residents' skin. However, "diversity" now seems to be a major critereon for being considered "urban". In some quarters being high poverty is another critereon, at least as far as schools are concerned. I came across this website when looking for info on urban versus suburban-- Scroll down to "Determining Urban Schools". I'm not sure Myers Park would make the grade, but East Meck probably would.

I still say that if everyone was a little more tolerant of each others' residential choices we wouldn't have to be quibbling over these things.

Anonymous said...

"For anyone who has ever worked with marketing products, "urban" is code word for "black." That isn't a negative, just a marketing term.

In this blog's particular case, I think someone said it earlier: inside 277 is urban; outside 277 is suburban."

We need to get our terms straight, then. The area inside 277 is a decidedly "white" area, especially outside the small pockets of subsidized housing. Walk through Fourth Ward and see if you can find even one black person.

I really think that part of the problem on this blog is that people are relying on sweeping stereotypes and misconceptions. Uptown Charlotte defies a LOT of urban stereotypes.

Anonymous said...

Which was my point. I don't see Charlotte as having an urban area of child raising. Close in suburban, but the urban areas are for those without children. - Whether they are gone from the house, not born, or not going to be born is not relevant.

Anonymous said...

So, perhaps the question should be more like:

Would you rather raise your teens ( or any age children ) in a condo/apt. or in a house with a yard?

My experience is that either can work if the parents are good parents. But I wouldn't trade my backyard and watching my child play there for anything right now.

Anonymous said...

But I also don't see urban living as a racial thing. In other cities, even highly segregated ones like Detroit, you have urbanized white areas.

I think urban in a structural sense is more about downtowns and the amount of concrete that surrounds you.

Cato said...

Re: "Urban" as "Black"

One of the interesting things about reading and occasionally participating in these threads is that the connotation of the word has changed to my ears. If I hear, say, "urban music", I still perceive that to mean black, but if I hear "urban lifestyle" that's generally white. "Urban poor" or "urban schools" = black, or at least nonwhite. "Urban amenities" = again, white. "Urban culture" = toss up - depends on the context.

Anonymous said...

Previous anon.
You got it. As long as the term generates money, it's good.
At least according to our politicos...strange isn't it.

Uncle Dennis said...

To the blogger that cannot find a black person in Fourth Ward, you certainly must not spend much time here. Two names you might be familiar with, Harvey Gantt and Julius Peppers, both live in Fourth Ward.
I have sold several properties to other black people, small condos, large condos, etc. Please do not let your perception cloud your judgement.

happy suburbanite said...

Two observations--

UD--You are absolutely right--none of us should let our perceptions cloud our judgement. Let me see, now where did I read "Many people prefer those far suburban areas because the families are relatively affluent and well-educated and there’s less racial and ethnic diversity, which some people fear" and "Most of the (CATS) riders are black, and it would appear that most whites do not want to ride with them. I hate to bring that up, but that seems to be the reason people keep pointing to other reasons for their opposition."? We all need to keep an eye on our perceptions!

Secondly, I attended several graduation parties this weekend. I met visiting relatives from California and the northeast. They all marveled at the beautiful neighborhoods and our beautiful city. They thought we were lucky to have the best of both worlds, and found it quite a contrast to their parts of the country.

Meanwhile my son, who recently graduated from college in the northeast (yes, CMS does educate students well enough for them to attend an Ivy League college and their school doesn't have to be Myers Park), flew to Chicago to attend the graduation party of a friend who lives in downtown Chicago. My son is thrilled with the idea of that kind of urban living. We all have different tastes at different times in our lives.

Pete said...

The urban/suburban, white/black thing does bring up interesting dynamics.

The political and social elite have manipulated living areas downtown that has largely illiminated any urban teen-raising scenarios.

Residentially, Downtown Charlotte is now a rich man's oasis and the crime statistics/real estate statistics bear that out. That's why names like Peppers and Gantt cab be found there.

Just avoid the transportation center and large events like the 4th of July and New Years Eve (or watch it from the 25th floor).

However, no matter how hard Mary and other advocates try, making downtown Charlotte into (insert city name here) is most unlikely because (1) so few can afford $300K-$3M for housing (there's much more diversity in Huntersville) and (2) there is little in terms of grocery, retail, school choices, etc. in the center city.

The elite (political and social) and only the elite are behind driving the billion$$ being dumped into downtown. It is why it's not surprising that the majority of signers, according to the Observer, on the stop-the-train initiatives were westside and eastside minorities.

Although the signature gatherers made brief appearances in the 'burbs, the low-hanging fruit was decidedly "urban".


Anonymous said...

True. The signatures for the petition came from simply those being the easiest places to gather many signatures fast. Grocery stores, Walmarts, post offices, etc. The demographics of who signed is irrelevant.

Rick said...

The whole urban diversity vs. suburban homogeneousness tactic of the Uptown elite is complete and total bunk.

My evil, wasteful, (insert urbanist pejorative here), cul-de-sac is way more diverse than any of the Uptown towers or neighborhoods ever will be.

My next door neighbors who rent are black and blue collar (meaning they have their name on their shirt when they go to work). The next house over is an older white couple whose kids are in college. The next house is a young white couple with two young kids - again blue collar with a stay at home mom. The next house has an older retired black couple. On the other side of us is a family with four kids. Then you have my house. The house behind us until recently had an Indian family, from India - not native American.

Our income and educational levels across these houses are very different, but our houses are not. Most of them are only marginally larger than many of the uptown condos, and the square footage per person is certainly less.

Kids of all different races go to the same pool and participate in the same swim team. Most go to the same neighborhood elementary which is right at the front of the neighborhood.

Sure, we have yards which a high-rise condo does not. However, most are not much bigger than many I've seen in 4th Ward. I use mine to grow a garden that provides almost all of our produce year round.


Show me an Uptown tower or development that has that kind of diversity that is NOT government mandated - Fourth Ward and its local celebrities notwithstanding.

As a side note...

One of my neighbors works from home full time, and I do part time. Not all suburbanites clog the roadways on a daily basis. I suspect many of us in our neighborhood, myself included, would ride a CATS express bus to Uptown - if only a bus - any bus - came within a short convenient walk or drive to the front of the neighborhood. If the North Corridor line does get built, it will be too inconvenient to attract many of us even though it runs right by the nieghboorhood. I can see the tracks from my back deck. Access to it will be too difficult because you will have to drive on a major road to get to the nearest station. However, an express bus to the shopping center at the front of my neighborhood would be easily accessible to at least 1500 housing units. It would also have easy access to the existing I77 HOV lane. That could be up and running tomorrow if desired. Instead CATS wants to build a train line that will take years to build, cost hundreds of millions, and attract very few people.


Anonymous said...

Along the lines of who signed the anti/tax/train petition.

The Observer commented as if the fact only 28% of those who signed the petition voted in the referendum is important: "• Only 28 percent of the people who signed voted in the initial transit referendum, which was approved by 58 percent of voters in 1998."

What they didn't tell us is the percentage of people who were registered then who voted, or how many more people have moved onto or off the voting rolls etc., ad nauseum.

The Observer, as usual, is trying to make news, not report news.

Anonymous said...

As a local teenager, I really WISH my parents had brought me up in the city. I spent my whole life in a suburb with nothing but little kids (under 10) around, which was fine when I was that age but now... not so much. Plus it gets really boring at night when you can't even do anything outside. No wonder I watch tv and play xbox all the time, what else am I suppose to do?

happy suburbanite said...

To the teenager who just posted--what happened to all those little kids you hung around with when you were little? Did they all move away or are they just in their house hanging around the TV also?
The teens in my neighborhood really don't have anything specific "to do" at night around here, but they all seem to be outside anyway, hanging out together, laughing,talking, having fun.
I'm curious, what would you do outside at night if you lived in the city (I assume you mean downtown)?

Uncle Dennis said...

It was probably early in 2002 when I noticed an influx of skateboarders in the downtown area. Just a few at first, but then came a lot more. It has gotten to the point where businesses are placing "bumps" along ridges and railings where skateboarders have been damaging property with their boards.
I love to see that, not the damage, but the desire of these young kids using the city as their playground.
The comments about downtown becoming a "rich man's oasis" is far from the mark. Merchants, including developers, sell to a market that they can continue to sell to. The market is saying put these living spaces there and we will come.
We were brought up to look at a house as something we buy and live in for a long time. That is no longer the case. Three to five years is more the norm today. Mortgages are being designed to allow someone to afford a low payment, take all the tax benefits, and make a profit when sold. Also, starting salaries for the new mid level management is significantly higher than it was even 10 years ago. Money is different.
There is a tendency to peg things by something learned. When I was a kid and started smoking, cigaretts were 25 cents from a vending machine. I have always pegged the cost of a pack of cigarettes at that price. Now, while it has been almost 30 years since I quit, I still put that price as the standard. Cigarettes from a vending machine today, if'n you can find one, are several dollars! The outrage!

Anonymous said...

Anent Uncle Dennis' comment about people not buying houses and staying there, my cousin and her husband are in the process of fixing up an old house they bought. They were showing me and a friend of theirs around the place, describing what they did and what they were going to do and how it was going to look when they finished.

The friend said something about how one of the features they were installing was interesting and clever, but not something that a lot of people would want, and wouldn't that hurt the home's resale value? My cousin replied that they were not intending to sell the place, but to live in it; when it was sold they'd probably be either retired or dead, so resale not in their calculations.

( No, this is not my cousin's house, although she has incorporated some of the ideas. But this is a [perhaps extreme]example of designing for oneself, and resale be d*mn*d.)

Jumper said...

Once there were folks who actually lived out from town on a little horse farm. They were sort of rich. All the kids were jealous of the kids on the little horse farm. They made the horse kids their fashion leaders and followed their sense of style. They were a little jealous, too.
Now all the kids have grown up, and they want their little pseudo horsey farm too, but they can't really afford the horses. So they sort of pretend, since they are living in Ridingcrop Manor Estates that they, too, have Made It, and finally are as good as the horse kids.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, the cat house is a little bit over the top. I like cats but g**dam. It puts new meaning to developing around CATS corridors though....

Anonymous said...

If most suburbanites could move closer in without financial penalty, they would do it. There's a reason why houses in Dilworth, Myers Park, 1st and 4th Ward, and SouthEnd are so expensive; they're more than twice as desirable as identical houses on the county border, according to the real estate market. Charlotte is fortunate to have a very clean, safe, attractive core... so the only real reason to live in the 'burbs is to avoid the price hit (which is why Meck residents are now facing tax increases to cover for sprawling infrastructure).

Anonymous said...

Mecklenburg taxpayers face an increase because of the self centered greed of county bureaucrats, led by Harry Jones. That combined with the desire to spend ever more, along with the spineless democrats on the county commission cause the tax increase, not growth or sprawl.

Anonymous said...

The most recent increases are for water and sewer. Do you think that "self-centered greed" has anything to do with the sewer tax rate?

It's very simple: every time a developer drops 1,000 more homes on the county line, that's 1,000 water and sewer lines that have to be run all the way out to those houses in order to service them per city regulations. You better believe that there are similar increases in the pipeline to cover extra usage of garbage, police, fire, medical, and power resources. This is, of course, opposed to the minimal impact of dense center-city development.

You want that emerald-green, one-acre lawn in front of a 5-bedroom house on a cul-de-sac beyond the 485 loop? Then you need to pony up a FAIR amount of taxes to cover the ridiculous amount of infrastructure that kind of living requires.

Rick said...

One could also argue that the city itself operates on self centered greed when it continuously anexes land out to the county line as it is doing again this year.

When they do that they do it because they want the tax base that some developer has already built the are up some.

The fact that they now have to accept those responsibilities is the price they pay for anexing the area in the first place.

Charlotte is a suburban city not because people move out to the edges, but because Charlotte anexes those neighborhoods.

Anonymous said...

To anon:2:16,

We do pony up a fair share of tax here in the suburbs.

Why don't we separate Charlotte into individual cities like Matthews and let suburbs pay for suburbs and dense, city development pay for itself?

I like to think of it as being pro-choice when it comes to living. I choose a 1/3 acre lot on a quiet street; thankful for the recent rain since I'm high on conserving resources.

Anonymous said...

"Why don't we separate Charlotte into individual cities like Matthews and let suburbs pay for suburbs and dense, city development pay for itself?"

Atlanta has tried this model to no avail. Part of the reason that Charlotte has such a beautiful set of core neighborhoods is that the city has not allowed suburbanites to leech off city employment and resources while directing their earnings and tax dollars only into satellite ciites.

Of course, if some people have their way, Charlotte will become the next Atlanta in spite of itself. Ballantyne? Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

Total death rates for kids much higher in the suburbs.

While you may think that in the city, your kids are in danger from crime, in fact, the large amount of time kids spend in cars in the suburbs if far more lethal.

A study done a few years ago comparing the south Bronx with wealthy Westchester suburbs found total death rates for kids higher in Westchester, despite all the advantages to those kids. This was entirely due to the dependence on cars. And it's not just 16 year olds learning to drive. It's the full 18+ years spent in cars, regardless of who is driving.

Anonymous said...

To anon who posted:
"You want that emerald-green, one-acre lawn in front of a 5-bedroom house on a cul-de-sac beyond the 485 loop? Then you need to pony up a FAIR amount of taxes to cover the ridiculous amount of infrastructure that kind of living requires."
I agree if you extend your logic to income tax.


Mary Newsom said...

A factual clarification, and then a fun historical note:

The mention above of a tax increase is a bit confused. The county raised county property taxes, though that isn't going to pay for water/sewer service, but to improve county services such as parks, libraries, sheriff's department and schools.

The water/sewer increase is a rate increase. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Utilities is a city department, but is run with water/sewer rates. When CMU needs more money it doesn't seek a property tax increase from the city, but a water/sewer rate increase.

Historical note, re splitting neighborhoods into separate municipalities: The neighborhood of Myers Park incorporated itself as a separate town in 1920. It let its charter lapse in 1924, citing apathy. (Source: "Legacy: The Myers Park Story", Mary Norton Kratt and Thomas W. Hanchett, 1986.)

Anonymous said...

Well Mary, are you trying to educate the great unwashed as to the difference between, city, county, towns and municipal services? Good luck.

Having written the note about H Jones etc., I was rather surprised about the water sewer rate comment.

Anonymous said...

"To the blogger that cannot find a black person in Fourth Ward, you certainly must not spend much time here. "

You have got to be kidding. Aside from the Salvation Army housing on Poplar, there are almost no blacks living in the historic district. You can't just name two celebrities and act like you've demonstrated racial balance. 4th Ward is about the whitest neighborhood in the whole city.

Anonymous said...

For the people who are saying Myers Park is not urban and is full of uppity white people---you are wrong. I just recently graduated from Myers Park and there is a mix of many different people. Some people are from more suburban areas and some people are from urban areas. It is a great school.

Anonymous said...

It's absolutely amazing how anyone could defend suburban sprawl, and condemn the light rail project, after reading the story from today's Observer/WCNC link about plans to widen 2013! If you still feel that having that McMansion on 3/4-acre way out in South Charlotte and beyond is defensible as a sustainable direction for our nation,check it out.

Oh well --- let the market decide; if folks wanna spend $4+ a gallon of gas to sit in hour-long parking lots, more power to 'em......meanwhile, my modest little 1940s house with a view of the Uptown skyline at night peeking through huge shade trees, in evil, overtaxed, crime-ridden horrible Charlotte, will continue to rise ridiculously in property value as more & more folks 'get it'.

Anonymous said...

i would shoot myself in the face before i lived in union county suburbs

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