Monday, July 02, 2007

Transit foes 'grass roots?' One point of view

I spent a couple of hours last week talking with Robert FitzPatrick, who spent much of the 1970s helping Charlotte neighborhoods and grass roots groups organize to fight City Hall.

My Saturday column told of his efforts to prevent Freedom Park from being plundered by an ill-conceived canal project. The project would have dredged Little Sugar Creek and trapped it into concrete embankments and locks – and would have richly rewarded land owners and real estate developers who were pushing the plan.

In those days FitzPatrick and the folks he organized mostly fought City Hall and the business oligarchy that backed city government. Among the leaders of the group that fought the canal project were a roofer and a truck driver.

FitzPatrick helped organize the North Charlotte Action Association, which focused on code enforcement and trash pickup. He helped organize the Association for Better Public Transportation, a citizen group that fought (unsuccessfully) a bus fare increase that made Charlotte's fares among the highest in the country. (40 cents in 1974, equivalent to $1.66 today.) The group also wanted the city to take over the bus system, because the private company running it was providing, as FitzPatrick termed it, “nasty, dirty buses that were never on time.”

So I asked him what he thought of the folks who had organized to get the repeal of the transit tax onto the Nov. 6 ballot. They say they're “grass roots,” because the Charlotte Chamber and most elected officials here support the transit tax.

“I hope you will not link the group I was involved in with them,” he said. “We were not financed by somebody anonymous throwing a lot of money. To me that’s not real grass roots.” (Businessman Jay Morrison, who says he's running for school board, paid to hire professional petition-gatherers to get 48,000 signatures to put the measure on the ballot. Morrison hasn't said how much he paid. "Those close to Morrison say he's paid for about half the cost for the petition drive," a June 7 Observer news report said.)

And, FitzPatrick pointed out, “We didn’t have a single elected official anywhere within a hundred miles of us.” Co-chairs of the anti-transit tax petition are former school board member and former county commissioner Jim Puckett, former City Council member Don Reid. Helping them is former U.S. attorney Tom Ashcraft. None holds those positions now, of course.

FitzPatrick is not looking at CATS through rose-colored glasses. He said the single-issue interest groups, like the one formed to fight the transit tax, are a symptom of a government (including CATS) that doesn't take the time to be responsive to the public.

Is Charlotte different, I asked him, from the days when the business community ran the city?

"If it is," he said, "it's imperceptible to me. Just look at the sprawl. It's a disgrace. Is that vision? ... Nobody ever takes responsibility for disasters, like the death of the west side, or the university area. You can't even walk around up there. Whose vision was that?"

158 comments:

Anonymous said...

LOL. You're too funny (and predictable) when you shill for CharMeck GovCo, Mary.

Rick said...

Ok Mary,

Please give us your definition of true grass roots. From the tone of your post, being successful would preclude someone from being a member of a grassroots movement - so would being a concerned citizen who has previously served in government. (Apparently Mary doesn’t like people spending their own money unless she and her brethren have some say over it - aka taxes).

Let me give this “grassroots” versus “goldroots” comparison a little more background…

The anti-train-tax folks are a handful of out of office officials and one young guy who happened to be willing to spend some of his hard earned money on something he believes in strongly. Oh yeah, AND 65,000 people who signed the petition. Most of those signers were from the east and west sides, many from minority groups – you know the real power centers of Charlotte.

The pro-train-tax groups include the illustrious Mayor for Life – Mr. McCrory. Add to that the Chamber of Commerce, the local state university and its president, the local Paper of Record (that would be you Mary), other current and former elected officials, and the local shadow government - aka Center City Partners. (Take a look at the board of Center City Partners sometime. This unelected body has all the big names on it – Lassiter, Helms, Gorman, Dubois, Gantt, Syfert, and Jones to name a few. Check it out -www.charlottecentercity.org/nav.cfm?cat=22&subcat=124&subsub=65)

Last week provided a prime example of how this gold roots power structure will connive and undermine the current debate through behind the scenes machinations. I had to laugh when it was reported last week that the UNCC report so highly touted by our forum host was nothing but a prepackaged campaign add. Out of curiosity Mary, why did you have knowledge and access to that report prior to its publishing?

Anyway…

The lifecyle of this “research” started with The Chamber asking The University to pull together a paper with data from The Chamber and The City. Then it was released through The Paper and used by The City to promote its agenda.

Now you tell me, which group is grassroots?

Anonymous said...

On the flipside Rick, I would find it hard to believe that a collaborative of former public officials (Don Reid, Jim Puckett), a Raleigh think tank and its members (John Locke Foundation), an eccentric (yet friendly, I met him last week) fellow who landed some coin (Jay Morrison), and decides to drop some of that coin a group of mercenaries to gather signatures, and a couple squawk boxes on a high powered AM radio station (WBT) constitutes a 'grass roots' movement either. This is not a David vs. Goliath situation as some of you would like us to perceive this. Hall of Justice vs. Legion of Doom is probably a better analogy (you can pick who's who). Either way, I've seen a gross bastardization of numbers and talking points from the right wing establishment to really confuse the average Joe out there, so don't be casting stones when someone else counters them. In the end, it will be beyond the numbers and more about what kind of city that most of Charlotte's citizens want this place to be. That is why I will be working with the Chamber and others to help us stay the course and provide extra mobility choices for the people. A more metropolitan Charlotte for all! Do I hear an 'Amen'?

Danimal

Anonymous said...

"One point of view"

That just about sums it up, when it comes to GovCo, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

Danimal,
I'm not religious in the least but I'll give you a "Hell Yeah" !!!!!

Anonymous said...

Mary, when are you going to comment on the revelation that the Chamber and UNCC conspired to cook the books regarding the alleged "benefits" of mass transit:

http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?category=oid%3A61

"Since then, city leaders and some members of the media have used the study to "prove" transit foes are out in left field. Now it appears that the study wasn't "independent" at all, but a useful prop ultimately paid for with public tax dollars for use in the Charlotte Chamber's campaign to save the half-cent sales tax for mass transit. Incredibly, the guidelines for the study were set in series of e-mails between UNCC's chancellor and the head of the Charlotte Chamber. Needless to say, the e-mails cast serious doubt not just on the study, but on the academic independence of the university and the integrity of the professors who drafted it."

Why don't YOU show some integrity and condemn Bob Morgan and his cult of moneymongers down at the Chamber, as well as Chancellor Dubois and his lying ghouls at UNCC?

Anonymous said...

Mary asks, "Is Charlotte different from the days when the business community ran the city?"

Dear God, nobody can be so stupid as to believe they still don't, can they?

Anonymous said...

Oh you silly little anti choo choo people. Just roll over and play dead for once. In November we will still have a train and the .5 cent tax.

We have bigger issues to worry about than 1/2 a penny. Like a WAR, a Pres that just let Libby out of jail and thumbed his nose at a Federal court.

This country is going down the bowl faster than ever and all you can worry about is a 1/2 a penny.

FOOLS

Mr. Unbelieveable said...

I would like Mary to comment on the new revelations that the Chamber/UNCC report was pre-packaged and bias and groomed to have a certain postion reported.

Mary's credibility is sinking quickly as she continues to schill for GovCo.

How about it Mary? What did you know and when did you know it?

What are your thoughts now that the email trail exposes that the Chamber & UNCC collaborated on this "report"?

We're waiting to hear your comments now, Mary...

Anonymous said...

Mary is particularly vulnerable on the fraudulent UNCC transit study issue. At the time, she presented it as a legitimate academic study. It is only now that we find out it was bought and paid for, it was not peer reviewed and it was ordered by interests with a pre-determined outcome before it even began.

Does Mary Newsom have the character to admit that she was wrong? Does she even have the integrity to admit that this study has problems with it?

We will see.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to know what, exactly, is the ultimate objective of the anti-train crowd. Ok, so you don't like the .5 cent tax (I guess that 2 bucks a month is really killing your budget). Let's say you get rid of it. The CATS budget goes kablooey, property taxes spike, bus service is too expensive for the people who need to use it, South End withers and developers start eyeing Marshville as the Next Big Thing.

So what is your point? You want Charlotte to be a hellhole? You want people to just pick up and leave Mecklenburg County altogether? Or do you have a comprehensive plan to prevent these things from happening? A plan that stabilizes the CATS budget in the face of massive shortfalls and defaults on federal loans? A plan that prevents property tax increases? A plan that details how CATS will be streamlined to offer better services with less funding? A plan that compensates for severe cuts in bus and train service?

Or are you all just blowing hot air to make political hay? Let's see it, rick: where's the alternative comprehensive plan for what we do AFTER a hypothetical tax repeal?

Anonymous said...

I would like to know what makes the study "fraudulent" ? Just because the chamber hired the study group ? Big deal. Would it be better if the anti train crowd hired the study group ?

As to the whopping 65k people that signed, I bet most were duped into it. Just like the many times they tried to get either me or my wife to sign. Very vague about exactly what you were signing. If you didn't come out point blank and ask if it was to repeal the transit tax they wouldn't offer up the info.

Look at the bulk of their signers. They are from poor uneducated areas of Charlotte. Doesn't take much to figure it all out.

I too want to know your great plan for transit and Charlotte's future. Don't say widen the roads or add more buses because it doesn't work. I sit in commuter traffic everyday ON THE BUS. I can't wait until I get get on the train and cruise in and out of town in 20 minutes flat regardless if there's an accident or not.

Clayj said...

Mary, in the immortal words of John McEnroe: "You can't be serious."

Like Rick has already pointed out quite well, the anti-transit tax movement isn't represented by anyone working for the city government, the Chamber of Commerce, or the university. That Jay Morrison would spend his own hard-earned money to organize a petition drive (an amount which, I should point out, is 960 years' worth of transit tax for any one person, so it's not like he's doing this to save himself any money), and not someone else's money (as the city government always does) shows that it's a grassroots campaign.

Now, if the Mayor and Pat Mumford and all of those other so-called "grassroots" people on the pro-transit tax campaign would like to all RESIGN their positions and run a campaign as private citizens and not elected or appointed officials, then you can call their sham campaign grassroots.

Until that happens, though, their campaign is an orchid campaign: A delicate flower that requires a hothouse to grow in, costs the consumer a lot of money, and dies pretty quickly.

Anonymous said...

ClayJ,
Can't wait to pour my victory beer over your head come November. I know where you drink uptown chubby.

Anonymous said...

A real transit study was done by a real transit expert. David Hartgen. He is recognized nationally as a transit expert.

His estimate is that light rail in Charlotte will be a complete waste of money. $8 billion for a system that does nothing to impact congestion or air quality.

His professional recommendation was to expand I-77, I-85 and I-485 and do it quickly. If we do nothing, congestion will double by 2025.

Light rail sucks up so much of the resources that it will be financially impossible to expand the road system. And expanding the road system is the only option that has any significant impact on congestion.

If we spend all of our time and resources on light rail for the next 20 years, we will be killing the economy of Mecklenburg.

It is better to kill this tax and just force CharMeck to come up with a reasonable plan that actually has a goal that will accomplish something.

Clayj said...

Anon @ 11:58: If you won't sign your name to your posts, then you're an anonymous COWARD.

Can't wait for Mary to turn on the required registration system that she told me is coming soon to this blog.

Anonymous said...

Yeah that 1/2 cent is just destrying my families economy. I just can't bare it any longer.

PLEASE, PLEASE quadruple that amount by raising my property taxes.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Widening roads doesn't reduce congestion. This has been shown over and over again: the wider the road, the more people opt to use it, the more congestion you get. All you can do is get rid of bottlenecks (like 485 near 51) and hope for the best.

The real way to reduce congestion is to offer alternative routes. That includes bypasses (like 485) itself, expanded secondary roads, and mass transit. We've done the first two, but we NEED the third. It's ridiculous to sit in traffic on I-77 for 45 minutes when you could easily take a train in 10 minutes along the same basic route.

Uncle Dennis said...

You got my "amen" danimal.

Lots of lines being drawn in the sand here. Lets step back and consider some stuff.

We are a representative democracy, that means we elect people to make decisions for us, and do not have a direct up or down vote on many issues. Is this the best way?

Most general elections only get maybe 40% of eligible voters, so if an issue passes by a 60 - 40 margin, that means it is about 24% of the eligible voters who have made the decision.

We may, and often do, disagree with what our elected officials do. Our recource is to vote them out of office, it is not like these politicians are making buckets of money for representing us.

We have a special interest group that is attempting to make decisions for us, and they have no charter for making those decisions.

If our elected officials make incorrect decisions as judged by time, we can properly affix blame, and that may reflect more on the party than the person, but still a reflection.

If a special interest group causes an incorrect decision, as judged by time, who is responsible?

We all have our own special interests and pet peeves. They come from our upbringing / environment. They are important to us.

We as individuals have a lesser interest in the general welfare if it does not match our views. Our elected officials are chartered to have that reasonably (Bill James being an exception) unbiased future view.

All that said, we all have the ability to become more active in our government by working on any number of committees, or meeting with our elected officials, etc. Joining a vigilante group and trying to yell the loudest may not be the most reasonable way to go.

UD

Aquila6 said...
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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I want to know exactly what is wrong with the methodology of the UNCC study. We all know that UNCC has a vested interest in the light rail system; that was on the table long before the study was commissioned. So the fact that the study was encouraged by pro-transit groups is not as shocking as some pundits are portraying.

But it's one thing to criticize the source of a study. It's another thing to criticize the study itself. What parts of the methodology, exactly, are "fraudulent"? I find it hard to take criticism of the study seriously unless a specific argument can be advanced against it.

That's what peer review is all about, you know.

Anonymous said...

And just what makes the latest UNCC study any less biased that the David Hartgen study's posted from the same campus? One gets funded by the Chamber, the other gets funded by John Locke and other special interest groups. So who's the 'shill' now?

Danimal

Anonymous said...

So let me get this straight:

- There is no specific alternative plan for what happens after the tax is repealed.

- There is no specific argument against the UNCC study, other than attacking its authors.

- There is no specific explanation as to why the tax needs to be repealed in the first place, other than attacking the city government.

So basically we are supposed to vote based on blind hatred of government projects? That's not very convincing, folks.

Anonymous said...

It's called PoDunk Redneck Conservative Mentality.

Not meant to offend all Southerners. You know who you are.

Rick said...

11:35 anon,

You asked for it...

Rick’s Comprehensive Plan If Tax is Repealed:

Immediately have the MTC pass a 3-year moratorium on rail transit expansion until ridership on the South Line can be verified.

During the 2010 election cycle, put the 1/2 cent tax back on the ballot.

If this passes again because the South line has proven itself, it will pass in a landslide. Planning can still move forward. At worst 18-24 months are lost if the trains move forward after 2010. At best the system saves $1 billion dollars in construction on the North and Northeast lines. I'm willing to risk the cost inflation of waiting a couple of years. We’ll also have a better idea of the actual construction costs.

In the meantime...

Increase CATS ridership through the following:

Expanded express bus service to Uptown from all areas. CATS recently expanded the UCity express bus to 10 minute service during rush hour as an example. This specific area would not be within walking distance of any proposed train route but is supporting a quickly growing transit population. Find more areas like that. If more buses are needed, they can be taken from any route that is not operating at least at 30% of capacity during rush hour with minimal schedule changes.

Require all new developments within Charlotte's city limits that have more than 200 units to set aside space for an express/regular bus stop and parking. If the developer can coordinate with an existing neighborhood shopping center for the stop and parking, that's fine. For example, my neighborhood shopping center is less than a mile from well over 1500 housing units. We are also very close to the I77 HOV lane. This is a perfect location for another express bus. No waiting.

Increase revenue and reduce costs...

First, sell advertising on all CATS buses. Charlotte is the home of several Fortune 500 headquarters. These companies and others would compete to wrap buses into rolling billboards. I see NASCAR buses, BAC, Wachovia, Duke Power, Family Dollar etc.

Second, charge any county outside of Mecklenburg the full cost of operating the entire express route that goes into their areas. If they choose not to pay, then shorten the route to just inside Mecklenburg County. At that stop, ID should be required that proves you are a Mecklenburg resident to ride. If you are not, then your fare is doubled.

Third, operating costs for any route going to any of the other Mecklenburg towns that does not operate at 50% of capacity during rush hour should be charged fully or partially to those towns. There could be some exceptions to this rule, but in theory if a route goes downtown from one of the outlying areas, it should be fairly well used during rush hour.

Raise bus fairs to cover the same amount of operations as Atlanta's MARTA bus system. See Table 6 from Mary’s favorite report published by UNCC. Atlanta only subsidizes 70% of the cost, Charlotte subsidizes 83%. We envy Atlanta in everything else, why not the cost efficiency of their bus system?

If all of these cost and revenue measures are implemented and a Charlotte property tax increase was still needed to cover the difference to run our current level of service, it would be minimal. Make it the $39 I’m supposedly paying in ½ cent sales tax, and I’d be whole. My suspicion is that it would be less than that.

Process Changes…

Reevaluate how cost analysis is done for tax increment financing requests such as the current one proposed for the North Corridor. Any planned development prior to a line being built should have to commit to either building or not building the development based on the existence of the line. For example, along Old Statesville Rd there are three major proposed developments along the North Corridor – Griffith Lakes at Harris Blvd, a Gandy development at Hucks Rd, and Bryton in Huntersville. All three of these have indicated that these developments will move forward even if the line is NOT built. Therefore, the property tax revenues from these should NOT be included in any North Corridor development plan.

Before any new line is built, a non-binding vote should be conducted. This is even if the tax was passed in 2010 as stated above. This would give the community a sense of involvement in the decision making process.

When a new line is built, stops should be proposed but no stops will be built with public money. Since TOD (Transit Oriented Development) is the savior of humanity, I’m certain a developer will step up to build it as part of a TOD. This should be done without any government subsidy.

Future Growth…

Push the state legislature to allow for HOV lane extension and HOT lane tolls. This would be particularly useful for I77 north. All toll revenue goes to pay for HOV lane extension until it gets to Mooresville.

Encourage SLUG line development along any HOV lane. Look up slug line if you don’t know what it means.

Property Tax breaks for Uptown employers for every employee who telecommutes 2 days a week.

Anon,

Need more ideas, or are you just content to scare the wealthy with property tax increases and scaring the poor with service cuts? My guess is that you are…

Anonymous said...

Rick,

That's a great plan. Other than you, who has endorsed it?

Anonymous said...

Not too hard to find a flaw: an independent and unbiased study requires that the qustions which frame the results not be designed by an party interested in the outcome. Valid studies attempt to account for bias. Allowing an interested party to assist in the design of the study and to vett the study before its relase INTRODUCES bias. Since that is exactly what occured in this case, it cannot be taken seriously as an academic effort.

Could the results be valid? Sure. So could a wild guess. Or more tot he point, so could a press release by an interested party. And that is essentially what this was. Any study that begins with a conclusion -and that's pretty much what it is when the result is dictated by interestd parties- and selects facts to support the argument that is that conclusion is not worthy of serious consideration. It may be right. It may be wrong. But there is no reason to believe that it is valid if the methodology introduces bias.
Anid it is no more to be taken seriously than is a press release.

The only difference here is that multiple parties KNEW that it was not independent and knew that it was not unbiased, and they lied about that.
As to the credibility of the study, the stake driven through the heart of it is that Edd Houser, the head of the Center for Transportation Policy Studies at UNCC clearly and overtly LIED in an interview with Mike Collins at WFAE. He claimed that no one solicited the study, but rather that it was simply his idea. The e-mails show otherwise.

Interestingly enough, the Observer -including Mary- WFAE, and the Chamber all used almost identical language in characterising the study as dealing with the "myths" of transit foes. Apparenly we are to believe that it's simply a coincidence and there was no coordination of message.

Anonymous said...

I am for the rail but I give Rick credit.

At least he's got ideas. The problem I see with bus only is that unless there are HOV or bus only lanes everywhere then the bus commuters sit in traffic along with everyone else. It doesn't solve the congestion that way. Do we really have the land required to widen I77 South another 3 lanes in each direction ? That's a minimum of what would be needed for the next 15 years. One of those 3 lanes would need to be HOV.
You are talking on/off ramps to complete this properly. Look at the NJ turnpike. That is a fine example of on/off rampage.
How about traffic lights like other big cities ? They let one, two or three cars out at a time onto the highway. Then they stop the next batch for about 5 seconds and repeat the cycle. This allows for smoother transfers from ramp to highway.We could also use to reschool everyone on how to merge. You don't merge onto an interstate with 60 PLUS m.p.h. traffic going 35 m.p.h.
Is it just me or is this something that should be common sence ? I've actually had someone come to a complete stop in front of me on the 277 loop near Kenelworth and look at his map.
ON THE HIGHWAY...IN A LANE...
NOT PULLED OVER !!! What is this !?!?!

We would actually need to revamp every single ramp in the metro area if you really want to get down to it. It's horrible. A fine example is 485 near the mall. What DOT blundering bozo came up with this design ? How about Tyvola rd. Lets have all the lanes exit and come to a big traffic light in the middle of the bridge.
Enough of the small town engineers. We need big city people with big city know how to fix this situation. Andy Griffith has had control of the wheel for far too long.

Anonymous said...

But there is no reason to believe that it is valid if the methodology introduces bias.

What specific element introduced bias? Again, we all understand the situation surrounding the study. What we've not seen is proof that the methodology is biased. The study is publicly available, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to show us exactly what you're referring to.

Rick said...

1:30 anon,

Nobody's endorsed my plan. I'm not a member of the uptown crowd, a politician, a political doner, or a reporter. I'm just a guy. That means my opinion doesn't really matter. You should know that about Charlotte - whoever you are. If you happen to be one of the above, feel free to use it.

1:45 anon,

As for widening I77 South. The South Corridor doesn't go anywhere close enough to I77 to make it usable to SC residents, so that's going to need to be widened anyway to accomodate the growth south of the border. It will be massively expensive I'm sure. One option to do that widening would be to make lanes one way with the rushhour like the HOV lanes in Northern Virginia along I395. They'd run in the middle between the permanent lanes. That way you only need to find room for 3 lanes total, not six.

Anonymous said...

None of the road widening solves the pollution issues though. Charlotte air is terrible and getting worse. Why not extend the light rail down to Rock Hill but let them pay for most of it. Why not ? They will eventually pay tolsl for that leg of I77. That's a given.

Then swing the rail onto the middle of 485 and go on out to Providence Rd.

If the rail went all the way to Providence and Rock Hill commuters would be fools not to hop it. Either that or just plan arrogant.
It's a small .5 cent to pay for our CLEANER future.
But I agree, they need to plan better. I know the South leg should have gone farther out. But it's a start.
I for one will ride it every single day.

Anonymous said...

I meant to say "eventually pay TOLLS for that leg of I77"

Anonymous said...

Anon 2:14 pm wrote:
Charlotte air is terrible and getting worse.

Huh? The air quality is getting better every year by merely older cars getting off of the roads. Car exhaust regulation improved in 1994, 2001 and most recently in 2004. If you bought a car after 2004 (even an SUV) it effectively produces 95% less pollutants than a car fro mprior to 1994.

If you contact CATS or any government agency, they are ALL projecting air quality to improve every year between now and 2020 even as the number of cars on the road grows by 33%.

So how does air quality improve with the number of cars increasing over that time frame?

Simply by the car fleet renewing over the course of 15 years, we will be improving air quality EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

Get your facts on the issue. The best thing we could do for air quality is have everyone buy a new car.

Rick said...

Well the last guy stole my thunder on the polution issue, but here's a little factoid for you anyway.

The environmental impacts of projects under the Federal New Starts Projects (light rail is part of this) are no longer even really considered in the evaluation process.

From the current New Starts rating guidlines page B-20:

"As noted previously, FTA has found that information submitted in support of the environmental benefits criterion does not distinguish with any meaning the merits of competing New Starts projects. While FTA reports the information submitted by project sponsors on environmental benefits to Congress in the Annual Report on Funding Recommendations, it does not formally incorporate this measure in its evaluation of New Starts projects."

www.fta.dot.gov/documents/
appenix_b_08_New_Starts_
Eval_and_Rating-SS_Included.doc

From further reading on the FTA website you can determine that basically the environmental impacts of these projects has been so suspect in the past that it is no longer used.

If you want to actually help our local environment, why not actively support Hybrid Technologies in Mooresville? They are one of the leading innovators in the hybrid vehicle industry, and they have a major research facility located just north of Charlotte. Why there? They are there because of the NASCAR industry and all of its auto expertise. You know, those rednecks who most urbanists want to leave the area. The future of Charlotte could be in the auto industry. Instead, we waste money on trains.

rebecca said...

So, requiring government accountability equals wanting Mecklenburg to be a hellhole? I would say lack of accountability is what makes for hellish conditions...and by the way referring to Reid, Ashcraft and Puckett as "insiders" is hilarious. That trio has been a burr under the saddle of the uptown crowd for years...they may have been businessmen and elected officials at one point, but they are hardly insiders.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
I've got one car between me and my wife. A hybrid but we barely use it. I express bus it currently from uptown to my business park and my wife takes the Gold Rush, walks or bikes.
On crappy weather days she will take the hybrid the 2 .5 miles to her office.
Other than that the hybrid is for road trips.
The bus system as it stands is okay but I have already seen a huge increase in my commute time due to heavier traffic on I77. Rail will allow me to cruise from uptown to my destination staion in 15 minutes. Then a shuttle bus will pick up every 10 minutes to take people to the business parks. About the same total 25 minute commute time when traffic is moving (which is rare).
If there's an accident then you can hang it up. The train will still get me home in 15 minutes flat as oppossed to sitting for over an hour in traffic.
Moves a lot more people with a lot less pollution.

The simple fact is that there are a bunch of Hybrid options out there right now and have been for some time now. Yet most people aren't buying them even when they buy a new car. It's sad to say but I feel most Americans could care less about the environment and more about how big their car is or how fast.
Time to grow up a bit, huh ?

By the way Rick, just curious , what's in your garage ?

Rick said...

Last anon,

I drive a pickup truck which I also use to tow my boat on the weekend. Niether is very fuel efficient, so I pay a lot in gas tax.

I'm not sure what your point is however?

I've said that before on this forum - I believe it was even to you. The elitest tone of the Uptowner with the ybrid he barely drives seems to ring a bell. I vaguely remember calculating that it would cost something like 900 years to pay off the excess cost of a hybrid that only gets driven 2.5 miles a day. You sure paid a lot for that status symbol.

You see if anyone should want rail for selfish reasons it would be me. It would be great if I could get someone else to pay my transportation costs for me. I also own a house and a rental condo my wife had before we moved that will be positively impacted by the next two proposed lines. The difference is that I'm not willing to sacrifice good government principles or my own conscience to get them.

And yes, I probably will buy a hybrid next time or some other sort of more fuel efficent vehicle. Maybe a nice diesel truck with 85-15 capability. But alas, my vehicles are paid off, so that will be a while. 5-10 years would be a good guess.

Cato said...

Regarding Morgan's and Hartgen's respective studies:

I haven't seen any methodological critiques of either study (any links would be good). But, after the CO's editorial board went waaay out of its way to tout Morgan's supposedly disinterested perspective, some schadenfreude is understandable. And, rather enjoyable.

Anonymous said...

Is this part true?

(Businessman Jay Morrison, who says he's running for school board, paid to hire professional petition-gatherers to get 48,000 signatures to put the measure on the ballot.)

If so, does he seriously think people will vote for him for school board after putting the transit tax on the ballot? Get real.

Jumper said...

I personally was against the rail project, although I did not participate politically based on that opinion. My concerns were based on two lines of reasoning.

First, I am too conservative in a fiscal sense to endorse plans that have LONG payback times. Very long in this case. I usually suspect that in the case of very long payback times, there are further remedial solutions that have not been brainstormed yet; ideas that remain to be thunk up.

Secondly, I am very familiar with Charlotte government's fondness for runaway boondoggles and corporate welfare schemes such as the coliseum madness showed everyone. I felt that even IF commuter train service brought benefits - defensible benefits - that shady overruns, Bubba backscratching, maybe even payola, would leech onto such a plan as to sap large amounts of cost/benefit from the project.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
I don't know what you are talking about in regards to you commenting to me before on this post. There are many hybrids uptown and in the surrounding neighborhoods so it could have been one of many, many you were posting with.

As far as me having an elitest Uptown tone I beg to differ. I actually care about my environment. I do my best to help out by walking and biking in the evening and on weekends. Like I said, currently I bus to work. The Hybrid is nothing more than a means to further extend the way I feel about our environment.

As far as me paying a lot for status symbol you are wrong again. I did it for three reasons. One being the obvious of reducing my dependency on foreign oil. Two was because it omits near zero pollution. Three was because I felt that the more people that bought the cars the more the car companies would see that there was a demand and the more they would develope alternative energy sources for automobiles. Milelage is just a plus since I don't drive out of town all that often. Sure I could have bought a Yaris for half the price. But it wasn't about the price. It was priciple. I know you know what I am talking about. You could have bought a jet ski instead of a boat if it was just about money.

As far as you
"not being sure what my point is however?"

I was simply trying to show that there are ways in place now, today that can afford people to totally change the way they live, work and play that vastly affect their impact on the environment.
You mentioned Hybrid Technologies in Mooresville. That's what got me on the Hybrid soapbox. That's why I asked you what was in your garage. It wasn't meant to sound nasty. I was genuinely curious since you were promoting Hybrid Technologies in Mooresville.

Granted, I am not poor by any means but I am not wealthy either. I would say I am middle of the road at best. I have invested wisely and saved my money. It has allowed me to purchase my condo for 50% down and buy my hybrid with cash. I understand this is not the case for everyone. It wasn't for me 15 years ago either. But there are tons of wealthy individuals in Charlotte that choose to pollute the roads rather than grab a bus, take a walk, get on their bike or buy a hybrid (they do have luxury ones now). Nobodys says do it everyday. Try doing once a week at first. Grab the bus, car pool, walk to the grocery store.

So I am sorry if I sounded like an elitest snob but you would laugh your ass off if you knew me. I am so far from it. I actually don't fit in uptown that well. But I have always wanted to be in a hirise and be able to walk everywhere. So uptown gave me that opportunity.

Chill and have a great 4th.

Anonymous said...

Jumper,

"thunk up" ?

nice

Rick said...

No offense taken anon.

I stand corrected. As you pointed out, there must be a whole lot of silly people Uptown who don't drive much who spent a fortune on a status symbol. ;)

Anyway, everyone have a great Independence Day.

K. Rogers said...

Rick...you really ought to think about becoming more involved in the transit tax repeal. It's readily apparent that our government types spend considerablely more time and effort on scaring/coercing the citizens into agreeing with them instead of coming up with innovative cost effective ideas.

I posted this thread several months ago and received no arguement. Simple math shows that LTR will cause inevitable tax increases...even if the tax is not repealed:

"According to data presented to City Council, repeal of the 1/2 sales tax would increase the property tax between 4% (bus only) and 22% (bus + 1 train line). The revenue generated by property tax is forecasted at $247.4MM for '07, with an additional $17.6MM from county assesment for shared services (ie: CATS, police, etc). Based on this, the bus only plan incremental is $10.6 MM and the bus+1 line is $58.27 MM. So, one light rail line costs 4.5 times more to operate than the entire the bus system.

It can be extrapolated that a bus + 3 train lines would have an incremental cost of $153.61MM based on '07 dollars. Per the Char-Mek budget, the transit sales tax revenue is forecasted at $62.2 MM in '07. When the full system is online, the operating expenses will be 2.5 times greater (...deficit) than the transit sales tax revenue. Where will this deficit be funded? An increase the transit portion of the sales tax to 1.15 cents would fill the gap, but what politician will approve a measure allowing Mecklenburg's sales tax to balloon to 8.6%? Sale taxes are not generally progressive, as their revenue tends to decline as the rate increases. The next available revenue stream is property taxes

However, the proof is in the pudding: if the property tax increase is automatic if the 1/2 cent sales tax is repealed, then property taxes should never go up to subsidize light rail if the tax is continued. Pretty simple really. Anyone care to sign up for that promise? Probably not..."

The current doom and gloom tactics are not fooling anyone. I have to wonder why LTR supporters dismiss waiting on the results of the South Corridor LTR before dropping big money on the other corridors. Seems like a fiscally prudent measure to me...

Anonymous said...

Hmmm...not even a hint of Nawdry. Amazing.

As I understand, I-77 from the Lake Norman area supports approximately 77,000 vehicle per day. In the next ten years, this will increase to well over 150,000 per day. The North LTR line, at best, will only serve 4,600 passengers per day. This represents only 6% of the increase.

The inevitable result will be congestion. For those not able to use LTR, will they see the difference of 4,600 missing out of the 80,000 increase? Likely not.

It seems the wiser investment would be investments in I-77 (HOV, rush hour lane control, etc) to serve the 80,000 rather than the 4,600.

Cato said...

The potentially ironic thing about hybrids and other alternative transportation fuels is that, while it appears to be urbanites who own a disproportionate number of them, they could end up being the best thing that ever happened to "sprawl" if the technology continues to improve and becomes less expensive.

Rick, I continue to admire your persistence.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:08, if you want I-77 widened more promptly, repealing the transit tax and killing off trains is nopt going to do it. You need to channel your energy to all the folks in the NC Legislature that seem to think dying eastern towns need a better road system rather than the fastest growing cities in the country. You also might want to egg on Myrick to earmark the funding the make this happen (though she crusades against that type of stuff at our expense, but thats another story).

I agree, I-77 needs to be at least 8-lanes all the way to Mooresville, and the southern portion needs to be 8 lanes to Providence and at least 6 between there and Independence, but we also need to get the train system up and running as well. If a train exceeds its original projections (which has occurred in many other cities), more service comes on line, and a few extra trains equal many more lanes of highway during rush hour.

It all goes hand in hand.

Anonymous said...

WHOA! Somebody was killed on I-77, in Fort Mill earlier today. That proves once and for all that freeways and Fort Mill are just as dangerous as Uptown and public transportation ...or at least some of the logic posted on this board would lead us to believe that.

Anonymous said...

Hands up, anyone who honestly believes that if the transit tax isn't repealed, our property taxes aren't going to be increased.

No one?

That's what I thought. Our property taxes are going to be jacked up no matter whether we have a transit sales tax. The cost projections for the proposed (read: preordained) North and Northeast rail lines make a property tax increase a requirement, not an option.

Lewis Guignard said...

As always, the comments are varied and interesting. I do take exception to the newbies insulting those of us born and raised here. A bit racist and ***-phobic - something we Southerners are accused of, but which seems to be the province of imported Yankees.

An aside to Uncle Dennis, who wrote: "We have a special interest group that is attempting to make decisions for us, and they have no charter for making those decisions."

This is not true at all. The Vote Yes on Transit Tax Repeal Group is only allowing the people to vote again on a issue which they had voted on previously, allowing some democracy into the republic.

But if UD is so concerned about special interest groups making decisions, I suggest he examine the Charlotte Chamber associated organizations.

Without going deeply into it, one function of the chamber is to sway votes (policy) on the various voting bodies in order institute legals actions which enhance their primary goal of economic enhancement for their members.

UD, as would be expected, avoids this issue, instead attacking those who support something he opposes.

Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...

"A real transit study was done by a real transit expert. David Hartgen. He is recognized nationally as a transit expert."

what a laughable statement. He is just a shill for the JLF wackos. If you actually looked at his studies you would find that they are all based on the assumption of gas costing less than $1.50 gallon. And think about what old Dave is proposing -- if he got his way we would pave over most of Meck and Union counties -- does anyone want that?

Rick said...

I was going to comment on UD's post yesterday, but today seemed more appropriate.

Today we celebrate our Independence Day - the 4th of July. Today we celebrate what makes the United States, the United States. Today, I thank God, yes God, just as the founding fathers did, that they did not think then like UD does today.

UD would have you believe that there is no legitimate expression of opposition to this tax other than the ballot box. I think the men at the Boston Tea Party would disagree.

UD calls anyone who speaks out against the government a vigilante. I'd like to hear the opinion of Paul Revere and his Minutemen on that subject.

UD apparently would side with the Torries and those that benefit from the current state of government, I myself would side with those who signed the Declaration of Independence.

History always provides a clear picture of the right thing to do. UD, thank you for providing the background.

Have a great Independence Day!!!

MarkA said...

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching the action for a few months. My opinion, the pro lite rail group is losing ground fast. And Mary, is Charlotte different than when the business community ran the city???? What were you thinking? or drinking?

Anonymous said...

If you don't believe David Hartgen is a NATIONALLY recognized expert on transportation, I suggest you do a google search on him. Every major newspaper in the country reports on his studies when he releases them.

K. Rogers said...

MarkA...

The pro-LTR crowd, local government and the Observer took a major credibility hit when they instantly reacted to the transit tax appeal with fear and coercion. That just panders to the lowest common denominator and completely ignores the financial mess of LTR.

See Rick's post above (7/03/2007 01:24:00 PM) for some really creative ways to replace or do without the transit tax revenue. For example, did it really escape them to look at advertising on buses/train and increasing user fairs from their current 16% level? Instead, they just tell everyone that half of the police and fire departments will be laid off. Incredible and appalling. These bums need to be tossed out on their collective ears in the next election.

If local leaders spent half as much time looking for creative ways to potentially replace the transit tax revenue, they would demonstrate to the average citizen a real fiscal discipline for the light rail plan. Ironically, a real show of fiscal discipline could keep the transit tax in place.

If I were a pro-railer, I would be doing the following:

1. Proposing a moratorium on light rail development for 1 year to demonstrate the "success" of the South Corridor line. Nothing will be harmed or lost by waiting 18-24 months. And based on pro-railer's talk, the success should be a slam dunk, so there should be absolutely no worries in waiting...right?

2. Immediately re-assess the costs for the North and Northeast corridors. Take the lessons learned from South Corridor and make sure they are not part of the assumptions on the North and Northeast corridors. That might loosen up the Fed funds that they cannot get approved on the North corridor. (North corridor is only 80% funded by the way...)

3. Ensure the contracted program managers for the South Corridor project are not used on North and Northeast. Parsons screwed up the South Corridor project something awful. Did we really penalize them or just huff-and-puff?

4. Clean house at CATS. They deliberately obfuscated the South Corridor over-runs, wasted money on trolley refurbishing ($180,000...can't be used now due to safety concerns with LTR train), thumbed their noses at city council on the office lease debacle...the list is endless. True accountability is needed, and that might mean firing a person or two.

Ok local leaders, its time to step up and show some real fortitude and demonstrate that you can think outside the box on LTR funding and not just scare everyone into what you want.

Anonymous said...

Oh, so now public transit supporters are now to be compared to British Loyalists Rick? I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had a red coat sitting in my closet because I support a system or operation you don't like. My, how some people will twist anything just to look like heroes on this forum.

As for those trying to make people like Reid, Puckett, Ashcraft and others heroes fighting for a noble cause instead of the gadflies they are, may I remind you, these are the exact same people who have tried to perpetuate a culture of White Southern Male dominance over the town where everyone else stays 'in their place'. Whether it's been a certain tax, racial issues, religious issues, you name it, these three and others have been on the side of anything that would keep this city from being a great place for all instead of a chosen few.

Luckily, the Chamber, the business community, and a critical mass of new comers are joining forces with the locals who have supported a more progressive Charlotte all along. Hopefully, after this referendum, these gadflies and their supporters will be marginalized even more and become even more irrelevant in city politics and operations. We can only hope.

Danimal

Anonymous said...

For danimal.

You distort the truth to suit yourself, attacking Reid etc.


Grow up, quit attacking people,and say something positive.

Oh, my mistake. It seems you have the same attributes you detest in those you attack.

How mundane -

Anonymous said...

Reid, Ashcraft, Puckett, etc. Here's what they do when they're not fighting light rail, etc. Try posting the Ten Commandments on the walls of city hall, trying to revive the civil war while racebaiting, reiling against conservatives who aren't reactionary enough for them. Here's the havoc they're wreaking on our city. Yeah, I want to be in the company of these hillbilly goons, don't you?





From Don Reid, 1997

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/moore12.htm


From Tom Ashcraft, 2003

http://www.worldnewspaperpublishing.com/News/FullStory.asp?loc=TCW&ID=997


From Jim Puckett, May 2006

http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/stories/wcnc-ad-5_3_06-confederate.7e00c6b.html

Anonymous said...

It was never said Reid etc aren't at one end of the spectrum, so I won't bother to read your examples. What was said is that by attacking them you are no different.

They have a right to their opinions. You would deny them that, even as you attack them for trying to deny others.

You are no better, perhaps worse.

Anonymous said...

I give up. I am signing off this post forever. You people make me sick to my stomach. Both sides. You are horrible towards each other. You want the train or you don't. Is it really so important that you resort to degrading your fellow American over it. On Independence Day no less. It's a silly .5 cent tax. If it bothers you that much than stand up and petition like you have done. If the pro train people want the train get your own group started and get the word out on the streets. But to sit on this forum and degrade each others opinions is a rediculous waste of time and energy.
Consider moving if the outcome of this bothers you so much. It's simple, pack your bags for greener pastures. Not every city is for everyone. Charlotte is far from Eutopia for me but it is a happy medium.

Be good towards each other. Everything else will fall in place one way or another.
Since I will no longer be commenting here I will not know your responses. I am sure I will have people bashing my outlook. It's their right to put their energy to work in any which way they desire. I myself am just choosing to opt out of this circle of madness.

Chio,
Uptown hippie hybrid guy.

Anonymous said...

Reading the editorials today from the predictable Observer, lead - UNCC study great, Schulken - woe on us if we vote no, I am struck by one thing only, the complete agreement with the Chamber/Charlotte bureaucratic position.



Let me make a suggestion on how Charlotte should continue forward.
Sell the airport.

The proceeds would easily pay off enough debt to leave Charlotte very well off. The loss of the Transit Tax wouldn't even be felt




Lewis Guignard

Anonymous said...

The half-cent tax ALREADY has voter approval; it had to be approved in the first place. Repealing it and putting it back up for vote is, frankly, nothing but an obstructionist tactic.

Stop wasting our time and move on to things we haven't already voted for.

Anonymous said...

2:14: You write:

"None of the road widening solves the pollution issues though. Charlotte air is terrible and getting worse."

That is an ABSOLUTE LIE - no surprise coming from a BOB MORGAN/DAN RICHMAN SYCOPHANT. Why don't you try to post the SOURCE for that LIE? You CAN'T because it's NOT TRUE AND YOU KNOW IT.

Anonymous said...

It's nice to see some alternative ideas being discussed here, but let's not forget the reality: the tax-repeal bloc has NO organized plan for what happens if the tax is repealed. It's one thing to discuss these ideas on a blog, but another thing entirely to implement them in reality.

I hope the voters of this county aren't short-sighted enough to blindly cut funding to their own services without an idea of how those services will be rendered in the future.

Anonymous said...

1. Proposing a moratorium on light rail development for 1 year to demonstrate the "success" of the South Corridor line. Nothing will be harmed or lost by waiting 18-24 months.

Construction materials (steel, concrete, etc.) are undergoing a huge surge in inflation. This accounts for most of the budget increases that we've seen in the LRT project (yes, the right wing calls inflation "wasteful" when it's attached to government budgets). 18-24 months of waiting would almost certainly mean millions of tax dollars being spent to cover the inflation that occurs during that time period. The right wing would throw a fit and cancel funding to the whole project.

2. Immediately re-assess the costs for the North and Northeast corridors. Take the lessons learned from South Corridor and make sure they are not part of the assumptions on the North and Northeast corridors.

This feeds into point #1. The South Corridor budget was based on 1990's cost estimates, and the majority of the increases had to do with inflation over a decade. If the cost projections included inflation (in other words, if they were introduced in 2010-ish dollars instead of 2007 dollars), the right wing would throw a fit and cancel funding to the whole project.

3. Ensure the contracted program managers for the South Corridor project are not used on North and Northeast. Parsons screwed up the South Corridor project something awful. Did we really penalize them or just huff-and-puff?

This has already been done. What more do you want, public floggings?

4. Clean house at CATS.

This is what elections are for. Vote for representatives who will advance this goal, if it's what you really want. Cancelling CATS funding is not necessary for removing its decision-makers.

Ok local leaders, its time to step up and show some real fortitude and demonstrate that you can think outside the box on LTR funding and not just scare everyone into what you want.

Ok, listen really closely, because you've obviously missed this point every other time it's been brought up:

LTR funding was approved by voters in a fair, open vote. This has already been done. "Thinking outside the box" is not necessary when a goal has already been accomplished. What you apparently want is to reverse a decade of political progress, bringing the LRT project back to Square One and restarting the whole funding process. This is why they call it "backward thinking", which I'm sure is well outside the box indeed.

Anonymous said...

So, we voted for it and now we can't change our minds.

WRONG -

Why do we have elections every year? Because we change our minds!

Anonymous said...

That would be "Flip Flopping" and isn't that a big Repulican NoNo ?

Pete said...

Mary,

Your editorial today defending UNCC, the Observer and The Chamber conspiring to present the now infamous "UNCC study" as unbias and "just facts" is really pathetic. I have grown to expect a better, more cumnning, adversary.

I'd say at this point, you guys in in deep do-do.

Todays pitiful attempt to deny having your hands in the cookie jar when you were covered in cookie crumbs from head-to-toe illustrate your desperation.

Oh, and to the Hybrid Hippie Guy (because we all know he's going nowhere): relax, smoke another one. A little disagreement among citizen bloggers ain't gonna kill ya.

Pete

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry that you changed your mind after the vote was taken. Maybe you'll think harder next time. But for the rest of us, we'd rather not have the future of the city ****ed up because some voters just weren't paying attention.

We voted. We approved rail. Get over it.

Anonymous said...

We voted in 1998 and approved a $1 billion transit plan and we were told property taxes would never be used.

That planned was a complete lie we have since come to learn.

Now we are looking at an $9 billion plan and CATS is pitching a TIF plan (property taxes) to build the North line.

So a repeal vote on the lies from 1998 is completely reasonable to expect.

The law which provided the tax also provided a means to cancel the tax by the voters. That is democracy.

Anonymous said...

Still smells like a Flip Flop to me. Either that or I am just smelling a big old pile of fat Repulican elephant crap.

Pete said...

I voted for what Mayor McCrory called at the time a "comprehensive regional transportation plan".

Now it's easy to see that the plan's spending is completely misprioritized.

I don't think SCAT would have been formed nor would I and others be so opposed if our political leaders would just agree to let the SouthLine run for a couple of years so it could be objectively analyzed.

The resistance from our elected leaders, Observer, Chamber, etc. to step back and take a look at this thing leaves a very fishy smell (no, I showered today--it ain't me) that's hard to ignore.

Now we have the pro-transit group claiming to be grass-roots while threatening Draconian Police and Fire cutbacks and The Observer's poor attempt to cover-up "UNCC Studygate".

Oh, here's a Charlotte Business Journal current survey. Hurry up and read it before Bob Morgan makes them take it down.

What is your opinion of congestion of the state's urban interstate system?

The problem is getting worse, and not enough is being done to relieve congestion.
70%

It's a growing problem in some isolated cases, but for the most part the urban interstate system is functioning well.
9%

Regardless of the congestion problem today, state and local governments need to focus less on road construction and more on mass transit.
21%

Probably the outcome of the repeal, don't cha think?

Anonymous said...

In 1998, how many people were 'duped' into signing on for the 1/2 cent tax in the first place?

Let's look at what we were told in 1998:

1) The McCrory line will cost $220 million. LIARS

2) Light rail for reduce pollution. LIARS

3) Light rail will reduce congestion. LIARS

4) The 1/2 cent tax is to fund EXPANSION and the 2030 transit plan. Fast forward to 2007 and find out 70% of the 1/2 cent tax just goes into the existing bus mass transit black hole. LIARS LIARS, PANTS ON FIRE!



And Mary thinks people who are 'anti transit' (in reality we are anti-BEING LIED TO BY GOVCO AND HAVING OUR MONEY SQUANDERED ON RON TOBER'S $200K A YEAR SALARY AND BUILDING A $500M BOONDOGGLE THAT NOBODY WILL USE) are just not visionary.

We see just fine.

That is why we want our money back.

Anonymous said...

The problem is not the train itself. The problem lies in the mentality of Burbanite Southerners. If commuters in the South part of town do not use the rail line then they themselves are the BOONDOGGLERS.

Anonymous said...

Steaming hot, smelly, mushy elephant dung.

Anonymous said...

What a bunch of complete crybabies. The first vote went the other way, so you're going to cancel it and have another... after your "grassroots" leaders spent millions of private dollars to influence the outcome.

For crying out loud, this isn't Rock Hill. If you want to live in a city without trains, MOVE. The rest of us, who VOTED for trains, will live here with the system that we CHOSE to pay for.

Anonymous said...

sniff ........ sniff ......... sniiiiiiiff.........

...... I know you can smell it too.

Anonymous said...

In some circles, elephant dung is called 'scat'.

The anti-transit crowd has formed an organization and named it 'scat'.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Anonymous said...

If you was a silly choo choo train to play on, you should move to Portland.

Anonymous said...

Nah, I'd rather make Charlotte more like Portland, good transit system, more liberal viewpoints of the world, and lots of cool microbreweries.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, it is too late to turn Charlotte into Portland. The sprawl is already here. No greenbelt has been establish unless you want to start in mid-Gaston and mid-Union counties. Too late for Mecklenburg.

That sucking sound you hear is all of the jobs moving across the border to South Carolina. They just lowered property taxes statewide and decided to fund schools and roads with a sales tax.

North Carolina is no longer competitive.

Anonymous said...

That's funny, I could swear that I saw all kinds of development going on in this "uncompetitive" city when I drove to work this morning. Must be the fumes from all that office construction... gotta keep pace when there's only 3% vacancy in your central business district.

Anonymous said...

If you was a silly choo choo train to play on, you should move to Portland.

No need, we already voted to have one here.

Anonymous said...

"If you was a silly choo choo train to play on, you should move to Portland"

Uhhh ? .... if I was a silly choo choo train to play on ?? Am I the only one here who thinks this comment makes no sense at all ?

Makes you wonder about these people doesn't it.

Jumper said...

Lewis is right. It would be a hard sell, since the airport is allowed to do things no private citizen would. They file no environmental impact statements regarding air quality, for one thing. In fact, it's almost impossible to get info on how much an airport contributes to local air pollution.

Jumper said...

I was stopped at an intersection when a test run of the rail cars went by. Unlike other intersections, this one was not fouled by smoke and noise by that traffic. I found the MP3 of a train horn they played on a speaker to be off-putting.

Anonymous said...

I have a suggesion. Lets strap Jumper to the front of the train and he can scream as it goes through the crossings.
Surely you have enough HOT AIR in you to accomplish a little toot..toot.

Anonymous said...

^ What's your point?

Anonymous said...

No point at all besides showing how you being
off-put has no point or purpose.

Anonymous said...

na nana boo boo

repeated ad nauseum





Whoo hoo.

Anonymous said...

Good to see this debate is doing so much to raise the standard of political dialogue in Charlotte.

Rick said...

Notice, none of the pro-railers posted any reasonable rebutal to the plan I posted earlier. Every element of which is legal and workable.

Why? They don't have one.

The best they can do is say...

"We fooled you in 1998 with lies. Now get over it. If you don't, then we'll sick our criminals on you and let your houses burn down."

Who would you rather believe?

Anonymous said...

Get over yourself Rick, we're just ignoring you.

Lewis Guignard said...

It seems the debate is reduced to these few elements:

It got voted on once, that should be forever.

It's a great idea. (insert various reasons)

It will help me, so someone else should pay for it.

-From letters to editor - property taxes will go up around it - so it's good.

Or

It's a waste of money, which could be better spent on other projects, or left with the taxpayers.

It won't reduce congestion.

It will help only a limited number of commuters.

It has no ability to change areas served, even if demand areas change.

Too much money (any) is being spent directly for development, not transit.

Spend the money on roads and buses.


I may have missed some.

The difference of how people perceive which should weigh more in their decision making seems to depend on their perception of what government.

Those who believe government should be limited, frugal and careful with our money lean one direction.

Those who believe government should provide entertainment facilities, and other amentities beyond police and fire protection etc., without concern for efficiency, nor concern for tax levels, support this project.

Of those supporters of continue as we go, who are in positions to make their opinions widely known, govco, Chamber, Observer editors, the reactions to a legitimate campaign to repeal a tax have been reduced to hysterical, fearful propaganda.

Why not the truth.
Calmly, point by point.

What are they afraid of?

The people actually having a vote on a binding referendum?

Yes, there is the problem. Govco et al has shown its true colors in this project and the people have an opportunity to say stop. Unlike other projects such as all those associated with the Arena Bungle, so "the larger government at any tax level group" is scared.

Good. They should have been concerned about waste, maybe they will learn to be.

Anonymous said...

Notice, none of the pro-railers posted any reasonable rebutal to the plan I posted earlier. Every element of which is legal and workable.

I frankly don't think that anyone had a problem with your plan. The problem is that it's YOUR plan, something you came up with privately and posted to a blog.

But there's a big difference between discussing something here, versus enacting it in political reality. And as far as I have seen, there is NO comprehensive vision for replacing the current transit plan. It's a simple decision between the rail system vs. whatever band-aid strategy CATS can come up with after its funding is flushed down the toilet.

Anonymous said...

Anon said in response to Rick's "Proposing a moratorium on light rail development for 1 year to demonstrate the "success" of the South Corridor line. Nothing will be harmed or lost by waiting 18-24 months.

Construction materials (steel, concrete, etc.) are undergoing a huge surge in inflation. This accounts for most of the budget increases that we've seen in the LRT project (yes, the right wing calls inflation "wasteful" when it's attached to government budgets). 18-24 months of waiting would almost certainly mean millions of tax dollars being spent to cover the inflation that occurs during that time period. The right wing would throw a fit and cancel funding to the whole project."


If the objection to Rick's idea is to build now because prices are going higher then I suggest the objection is ludicrous. Prices are always going higher. Should we then spend Say $20 billion next year in order to avoid spending it 10 years from now or 20 years from now.

It is a STUPID idea that we can avoid inflation by spending now. In fact borrowing to spend causes more inflation.

Who is the idiot writing this?

Anonymous said...

^ You obviously aren't familiar with the construction industry. Prices are RISING on construction materials. Buying them next year is more expensive than buying them this year. 2017 prices are going to be ludicrously expensive compared to 2007 prices, just as 1998 prices seem cheap by comparison.

We are talking about price increases, not regular inflation. Get a clue.

Anonymous said...

i agree with rick and lewis, this is all about the elite rich people uptwon buying toys for themself and not the regular american citizen. i say get rid of all the mass transit (buses too) and expand all the highways to at least 6 lanes so we can get somewhere.

WBTman

Anonymous said...

Rick said...
"Notice, none of the pro-railers posted any reasonable rebutal to the plan I posted earlier. Every element of which is legal and workable. "

No one is rebuting because the 2030 plan is fine as it stands. We already voted on a great transit plan. It's being executed and will continue to be executed. I cannot wait to see the dead silence on this blog in Nov. when the train just keeps on rollin'.

Will you FINALLY shut up then ?

Rick said...

Well now there we go.

You see, in the plan that I proposed, I readily admitted that risking the cost inflation of construction which is greater than regular inflation was something I am willing to risk. (Re-read what I wrote.)

What you pro-railers have just exposed is that you are willing to spend absolutely whatever it takes to build the rail no matter what reality would dictate. It doesn't matter what it costs. You've decided to build it and that's that.

Now let's do the math this way.

If construction inflation is 10%-15% a year and that is forecasted to continue indefinitely, then the current numbers for both the North and Northeast lines are probably already way off.

As a side note, so are the numbers for the proposed school bonds. If you do the math on those, they used an inflation rate of only about 3.5%. If construction rates are way out of control across the board, exlain this discrepancy.

You can't.

Anonymous said...

Anon Said:

"We are talking about price increases, not regular inflation. Get a clue."

So I suppose we can borrow our way out of excess costs.

Like I said - Stupid

You can't spend enough borrowed money to make any difference.

Or are you suggesting we spend enough next year so we don't have to spend any more for the next 50 years. The logic - or lack of - is the same.
The transit tax certainly wouldn't cover it. 65% of it is being spent on buses, leaving $27 M to finance debt - So you could only spend about $400 M before you run out of the ability of the transit tax to finance it so then you'd have to go to property taxes.

You're proposing raising property taxes to spend now to avoid price increases then??????

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure where the last two comments are coming from, but they're not addressing the point at hand: Rick, you specifically said that "nothing would be harmed or lost" by a two-year delay in construction (you did not characterize it as a "risk", as you now claim). The idea that "nothing would be harmed" by a delay is patently false, as the rapid increase in construction costs would mean a seven-figure loss for the taxpayers. This increase is out of CATS' control, yet you constantly criticize them for coming in overbudget... and now you want to ADD to the problem by forcing them to halt construction?!?

Bottom line: every year lost on construction, be it rail or schools or what-have-you, is money down the drain. We can't sit on our duffs, voting and re-voting every issue, with the assumption that we have all the time in the world to work these things out. The anti-transit crowd is contradicting its own aims with this repeal, which would make it impossible to run a budget-friendly system.

Rick said...

Anon,

Where did you learn to read? Hopefully not at CMS, or Charlotte is really in trouble. Your reading skills seem to be lacking. Re-read for the third time the plan I posted 7/03/2007 01:24:00

From the plan I posted...

"I'm willing to risk the cost inflation of waiting a couple of years." So, yes I do recognize it as a risk.

I also never said "nothing would be harmed or lost". I said "At worst 18-24 months are lost if the trains move forward after 2010"

Yes, it would be a 7-figure difference I'm sure - if the plan went forward as is. But the alternative may turn out to be that the voters would decide in 2010 that they don't want rail at all because the South Corridor has not proven itself. Then the North and Northeast corridors would not be built, saving $1 billion in construction costs. Or, they may pass the tax again, with no complaints from me, if the South Corridor has proven itself.

My complaints have never been about the money itself. They have been about the waste. But if you want to talk about inflationairy dollars. What is the cost of the original 2025 plan that is now a 2030 plan? That's five years lost before the first line even opens. Also, what about the original planned opening of the South Corridor for late 2006. It now won't open until late 2007 - if the whole line opens on time. Can CATS be held accountable for that bit of the cost overrun?

Again, your assumption is that the lines will be built no matter what and at whatever cost. It has been pre-ordained in your world.

In mine it has not.

Your obvious misquotes show who is being dishonest in this discussion.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

So let's get this clear, rick:

- You are fine with wasting millions of tax dollars by delaying construction unnecessarily, but you want CATS held accountable for cost overruns.

- You think it's politically expedient to vote on an issue, re-vote to cancel the original vote, and then re-instate the first vote by rescinding the second.

- You want CATS officials held accountable for pushing back the completion dates, and you will do that by intentionally forcing completion back another 18-24 months.

- You think that people who ride the bus will support a measure that would lead to massive cuts in bus service and raise fares.

- You want to see CATS improve its services by destroying its funding.

- You don't understand why people consider rail a "pre-ordained" event, even after the people have voted in favor of it.

Maybe you ought to run for school board, rick. You'd fit right in with that crowd.

Rick said...

2nd to last anon,

Wrong on all counts. Recent transplant from DC 3 years ago. That's where I get my experience of what a city with real traffic problems is like. Grew up much further away than that.

Last anon,

Nice word twisting. You've taken it to an art form.

What I proposed is about as far from your characterization as could possibly be construed.

My proposal basically acknowledges that inflation costs in the construction industry are out of control. Charging forward with this knowledge is reckless at best. A short pause to reassess the situation would be prudent.

This is all after people were told very different information back in 1998 from what reality holds today. I'm not going to argue with you the merits of having a revote when the original information was false - intentionally or otherwise. A revote under these circumstances is valid on its face and needs no further explanation. Your position, opposing a revote under these circumstances is the one that needs more explanation.

Anonymous said...

Rick,
Since you say you grew up much further away than D.C. I would venture to guess you are from a small podunk town. That's where you get your small minded views on traffic and city life. Just because you were in D.C. for awhile doesn't mean a thing. I am betting you posted the same nonsence there as you do here.
Same ass backward views still following you around since you were a kid playing in the corn fields.
Let go of the small mind Rick. You would have thought living in D.C. would have helped you out with that. Bet you also lived out in the burbs there as well.

Anonymous said...

Anon noted below said: "Same ass backward views still following you around since you were a kid playing in the corn fields.
Let go of the small mind Rick. You would have thought living in D.C. would have helped you out with that. Bet you also lived out in the burbs there as well.

7/06/2007 05:29:00 PM

Well, so where we were born or raised is important.

Is it that Rick is correct and honest and you others can't stand it?

Is it that name calling is the best you can do?

Do you expect him to stop because you don't approve of his beliefs?

I, among many, am from here. So what.

It seems there are no real arguments to oppose Rick except name calling.

Oh, please.

Lewis Guignard

Rick said...

Wrong again. Louisville, KY.

Another city that did the right thing and put their rail plans on the back burner.

Anonymous said...

To the pro-light rail crowd who thinks repealing the transit tax shouldn't be allowed since we already voted for it, I have one word for you: Recall.

Political recalls have a long history in US government (federal, state and local). Prohibition, a constitutional ammendment was voted and passed by the public and then ultimately repealed by the public. How about the governor of California? Citizens changed their minds and elected a new governor because the felt the elected one was not fulfilling his job adequately.

Recall is simply part of the democratic process. When citizens see that something is not working as they thought (...Light Rail) when they originally voted, the form together to change their minds.

It's a long and storied part of US politics. So get over yourselves...it's part of our governmental process.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Such a witty and intelligent response to a fact based post.

Try to post something more intelligent and to the point. Pro-light railers would do them a much better service using better arguements than name calling and generally degrading posts.

Anonymous said...

^ It was a pointless response to a pointless post. Everyone knows that recalls are part of the political system, so it was nothing but condescending to waste 4 paragraphs giving everyone a civics lesson. The question isn't whether recalls are legal, but whether a tax repeal (not the same thing) is justified.

Anonymous said...

60,000+ signatures say it's justified.

My point was to point out to those who cried foul that voting on the transit repeal was not right.

And, by the way, the repeal vote is a recall...just another version of the same concept.

Anonymous said...

I grew up here and am a product of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. Not all Charlotte natives agree with Rick, Lewis and the others who reveal their burning resentment with every hurling of "GovCo!" Some, maybe many of us natives want the rail system to expand. Please let me remind one and all that the ballot initiative to repeal has been funded by someone who moved here a short while ago and changed his name.

Anonymous said...

So anyone who is not a Charlotte "native" has no voice?

Please...my tax dollar is just as green as yours

Anonymous said...

Let's just put it this way: those of us who have been here a long time are a lot more invested in the community, and are a LOT more likely to stay here for the long run and invest ourselves further. We have more at stake in our hometown than someone who has lived here for all of 3 or 4 years.

It's not that natives have a more important say in the matter, and it's not that transplants don't have the best of intentions and ideas. But really, it makes sense to pay special attention to what the indigenous population has to say about a matter such as this.

As a native and lifelong resident of Charlotte, I have nothing but disgust for the anti-everything, NIMBY, naysaying rabble that tries to put a halt to every civic effort in this city. If they had their way, this would be the most sterile, unattractive city in the country. They find a way to oppose EVERYTHING that the community tries to accomplish, to the point where it's really not even a conservative/liberal thing anymore. It's a matter of whether we want a city that's organized and efficient, or one that's designed with short-sighted intentions only.

Buses and HOV lanes for a city of 2 million? You have to be kidding. I truly hope that the people of my hometown are not pliable enough to buy into such a ridiculous, inadequate vision for the future of a prospering metropolis.

Anonymous said...

"So anyone who is not a Charlotte 'native' has no voice?

Please...my tax dollar is just as green as yours"

Of course it is and please let your voice be heard. My point was that not all natives are anti-light rail. Some of us, including me, think it is critically important and wonderful that it is being built.

K. Rogers said...

The problem with your arguement is this: many of these transplants come from urban areas that have major transit systems in place(...New York, New Jersey, Chicago...). Many have chosen to purposely leave these areas for the living experience of Charlotte-Mecklenburg.

You may want to listen to our collective experiences, as we have lived in urban areas that have been down the road that Charlotte is now traveling.

I originally hail from Chicago. It has a huge mass transit system that reaches far into surburbia. The system is well used, especially working professionals in the city. However, you also need to pack extra patience and good will to drive anywhere in Chicago during morning or afternoon rush. The congestion is horrendous...multitudes worse than anywhere in Charlotte. I-90/I-94/I-294/I-335 are parking lots. Why? Chicago and Illinois simply did not keep road capacity in check with their population. I am sure you will hear similar from other transplants from urban areas with big transit systems: they may have trains, but they are congested to no end.

Our current leaders (local, county and state) have an extremely myopic view of LTR. They believe it's the panacea for all problems related to our congestion and commuting frustrations. They (local, county and state) are deliberately ignoring road capacity and investment for LTR. This is at the expense of the road commuters. Not everyone will be able to ride the train. In fact, most of the expected growth in Charlotte-Mecklenburg will not even fit on the LTR system, yet we will be investing in and operating a $9 BB LTR system. In 20 years we are going to be no better off in terms of congestion and commuting. We will look back and ask: what did we really get for $9 BB? If you think the current debate has poor civic manners, just wait until the debate heats up in later years when no money is available since we have $9 BB wrapped up in light rail transit.

By the way, I have lived in Mecklenburg for over 9 years and don't plan on leaving. So, I am not one of the fly-by-night citizens you characterize in your posts.

Anonymous said...

CATS funding and highway funding do not come from the same sources. It's not like you can just take the light-rail money and put it into an extra interstate beltway.

Cancelling the LRT project will ONLY stop rail from being built. It will have no effect on road capacity. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think the roads here will improve because we shut down our mass transit system.

Anonymous said...

Many people seem to think that LRT dollars are dollars stolen from pavement. This isn't so. Unfortunately, no one in Charlotte has been successful in conveying this information to people driving on I485 around Pineville every day. They are understandably ticked off but that overwhelmed stretch of road is the fault of the state and the funding and planning it uses to build interstate highways in conjunction with the feds.

If LRT dies in Charlotte there will not be an outpouring of cement. There will just be no LRT and a crappy outerbelt around Pineville.

Anonymous said...

No..the problem is that we are investing and operating a $9 BB LTR system that will carry no more than 6% of the commuter population.

It won't even carry the expected growth of transit. For example, I-77 carries about 77k per day. In 20 years it's expected to cary 150k + people (95% increase). The Northline will carry, at best, 6000 per day. Do you really think those stuck on I-77 in the future are going to miss 6000 people? Not a chance.

$9.0 BB on 6% is plain nuts. And don't even get me started on spending $9 BB on a commuting "option"....that's the biggest bunch of hooey I've heard of....

Anonymous said...

^ You're missing the point entirely. We can't turn around and invest rail money into the roads. The budget doesn't work that way. So it's either spend it on the rail project -- a comprehensive vision that, while imperfect, provides direction for the future growth of this community -- or spend it on.... what? More buses? You think extra buses are going to carry more than 6k per day?

Anonymous said...

to K. Rogers:

No need for me to point out that if money for the rail project were taken away, it can't simply be used for road construction.......plenty of others have already made that point, which is (I thought) pretty obvious to most readers of these blogs.

I enjoyed your entry; it's one of the most civil and reasonably-advanced I've read in some time. All the more reason, I don't understand why it appears you think rail money can be directed instead toward road expansion.

The main thing I'd like you to answer, though, is this: So, do you think Chicago et. al. would be better today if they'd never built commuter train systems at all?

Anonymous said...

It's a little baffling to see fiscal conservatives arguing against a project that pretty much pays for itself over the long run. Of course, there's the short-terms income from transit ticket sales, which will increase every year for the forseeable future. Then you have the wholesale redevelopment of areas like South End and the University area.

But most importantly, there's the massive economic benefit of connecting the city via quick, reliable transit. Think of just the effects of connecting UNCC to uptown via rail; imagine how much economic benefit there is to that one change in the city's infrastructure. Think of how many businesspeople will take an extra look at relocating to Charlotte (either personally or as a business owner) because of the opportunties that rail offers. Think of how much closer the city will be to hosting big-dollar events like the Super Bowl or World Cup trials.

Yes, there are issues to be resolved with CATS and the 2030 plan. But it would be an economic disaster to cancel this program. We're paying $40 a year for gigantic economic and social benefits that far exceed what any bus line could offer. It's just astounding to me that anyone would argue that this is a "waste" of money, when economic reality so clearly shows otherwise.

K. Rogers said...

Anon 7:12...thank you for your positive comments. To be honest, I think Rick has the most erudite comments on this forum. His 3-July-07 1:42 PM post was outstanding and provided sorely need ideas.

Unfortunately, I left out a few important points in my last post. There are few myths, as Mary is fond of saying, about this light rail transit plan:

1. Light rail will never reduce congestion and pollution. Most knowledgeable experts agree and even CATS admits it. So, lets set that one aside.

2. The original parameters of the 1/2 cent transit tax voted in 1998 will be exceeded with 3 LTR lines. Bus + 3 transit lines will have incremental operating expense of $153 MM. The 1/2 cent transit tax generates ~$62.2 MM. Even considering a modest growth in transit tax revenue, there is over a 2.0 times operating deficit (see my 3-July-07 post for details). Where will that deficit be funded? Hint #1: property taxes. Further, the North Corridor is only 80% funded since the feds won't provide funds/grants. How will the gap be funded? Hint #2: property taxes. With the TIF financing being proposed on the North corridor Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson will be giving up property tax revenue to CATS/MTC. That is very unwise, as any incremental property taxes will need to offset the municipalities'incremental service needs. If this is done, Huntersville, Cornelius and Davidson can expect higher municiple property tax rates to make-up the revenue loss to CATS/MTC. It's not a zero sum game.

Conclusion: we will be operating outside the parameters of the transit tax that we voted for in 1998 and the taxpayer has the right to know this and has the right to stop it before it costs them big money.

Anonymous said...

1. Light rail will never reduce congestion and pollution. Most knowledgeable experts agree and even CATS admits it. So, lets set that one aside.

This non-starter of an argument should have been "set aside" a long time ago, but the right-wing crazies keep bringing it up.

Listen carefully: light rail mitigates congestion and pollution. We all understand that when you use the word "reduction", you are creating a fallacy that cheapens the entire discussion.

K. Rogers said...

Anon 9:34

I am not sure how you can conclude that. I-77 supports approximately 77k drivers per day. With projected growth rates it will increase to 160,000 per day in 20 years. The North corridor light rail will serve a maximum of 6000 riders per day. That represents 7% of just the projected increase (...in total terms its 3.75%). Will the average commuter notice a net decrease of 6000 riders from the 83,000 increase? Doubtful.

However, being a civilized sort, I will give you "mitigate".

Now, how about responding to the fact that LTR exceeds the 1/2 cent transit tax mandate voted in 1998 by using property tax funds? I don't think citizens had a chance to vote on a 1/2 transit tax AND increased property taxes for transit.

Anonymous said...

And I-77's and other freeways' costs far exceed the gas tax we all pay. The rest is covered by a generous federal road fund. You get the equivalent of a $500 subsidy every time you get on the on-ramp of a freeway, and I don't see anyone voting on that. Face it folks, we can't live without the road system AND a comprehensive public transit system in a fast growing city like ours. That is why I will fight to keep the 1/2 cent sales tax in place.

Danimal

Rick said...

Danimal,

You've posted that $500 figure before. Where's the documentation?

Oh, wait, I found it.

Everyone look at the table in the attached link. It shows the break down of the gas tax paid at the federal level. It shows how Danimal is not really telling the whole story. The table is a little dated, but it shows how gas taxes are being siphoned off for general revenue and mass transit.

So, auto drivers are paying for the roads AND the trains.

Aren't we generous!!!

www.artba.org/
economics_research/reports/
gas_tax_history.htm

Also, notice how NC looks in the map attached here.

www.taxfoundation.org/news
/show/1054.html

Anonymous said...

You're counting ONLY the North Line's effect on congestion -- but not including the South Line, which directly parallels 77 all the way into town -- and you're accusing others of not telling the whole story?

Is there no end to the hypocrisy of the neo-cons on this blog?

Anonymous said...

There's a gaping hole in the argument being put forth that commuter rail should not be built here, and instead wider roads should.

I AM impressed by the wealth of statistics being used by the anti-rail faction; it shows you have done a lot of homework. However, I think there's some inconsistency, perhaps even disingenuousness, to ignore the other side of the tremendous population growth in the Charlotte region which both sides of the argument would agree is an inevitability. If, for example, the number of vehicles going through North Meck on I-77 will increase from 77K a day now to about 160K per day two decades from now --- presumably the majority of those being Meck. Co. residents --- doesn't that mean the financial cost of such a project will likewise be shared further?

There are plenty of large-scale enterprises I use everyday that would be impractical for me, as a consumer, to fund without many others doing the same: a large supermarket rather than a small neighborhood grocer; a four-lane paved road rather than an unmarked gravel lane. These are the kinds of things that make sense when a community's population is dense. I think the anti-rail faction is applying some very sophisticated accounting projections to a population scenario that has changed drastically & will continue to do so.....and you can't use one without the other.

If you say "We only want to put the project on hold until the first leg proves itself, then would be willing to re-evaluate it", I'm afraid I just don't buy that claim; as has been pointed out by many others, that idea has little merit due to a host of reasons including rising construction costs and legislative process. Cynical or not, I think it is simply a ploy to kill the project for good......a clever ploy, by making the anti-rail group look admirable & open-minded while making rail supporters look like they're trying to hide something. I bristle at the portrayal of rail supporters as being apologists for poor project management; please don't insult us by inferring that.

Why can't you acknowledge that BOTH good highways AND attractive, efficient mass transit options are critical for a Charlotte we'll all still want to live in 30 years from now? If you want to learn from other cities' experiences, which I think is the best way of all, why can't you accept the fact that Europe is full of them where it works great, and that places in America like Chicago, NY, D.C. and many others have employed it successfully as a critical option alongside massive single-vehicle traffic? Interestingly, one reason commuter trains work so well is that, in many ways, they apply the same principles of efficiency & automation as Thad's GPS-in-cars idea. If you'd like to consider a city which 'put all its eggs in one basket' with transportation planning, look to Los Angeles.........absolutely massive highways, yet absolutely massive traffic jams --- meanwhile they waited decades too long to finally 'see the ligh't with rail transit. Ask a former Los Angeleno why they left, and I'll bet one of the biggest reasons they'll give is the traffic, so instead they headed to more desirable places like Portland or even Charlotte, which have either made sane transit planning decisions, or (in our case) are hopefully in the process of doing.

Anonymous said...

For some interesting insight into mass transit in other cities, highlighting Los Angeles but covering many other cities too, check out:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-transit-cover_x.htm

Makes me dumb-founded how we like to think of Charlotte as being one of the brighest stars on the national radar, yet we still are having the debate on this forum.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 11:10 a.m.:

Thanks for the link......great article. Makes me excited about the possibiities for Charlotte's future.

Don't get discouraged by the anti-rail crowd.......look at it this way: whenever a good idea is a little ahead of the curve, as Charlotte's transit plan is before the need for it becomes painfully overdue, one is vulnerable to ridicule. I'm confident the loud voices of these Luddites (those who are left who won't have changed their viewpoint by then), will be but a barely-audible whisper a couple of decades from now.

K. Rogers said...

Danimal...

I was unable to vote when Gov Easly and NC House raided the road fund for the general fund. I did not get a chance to vote when parts of the gasoline tax were transferred to mass transit. I am sure you and I could amass a large number of instances where financial moves were made that we did not have opportunity to vote on.

The transit tax and light rail are a local issue. The funds are mostly local. It's an issue we have total control over.

The math is simple: the 1/2 cent transit tax cannot pay a bus + 3 train transit plan. Funding of the deficit will have to come from property taxes since, as Mary is fond to point out, sales taxes are the providence of the state. As soon as $1 of property tax revenue is need to pay for the bus+3 trains, the voter approved mandate has been exceeded.

As such, don't we owe those citizens who voted "YES" for a transit system support soley by a sales tax the courtesy of knowing the real financial picture and deciding if this is really want they want?

To Anon 8:23...I see huge inconsitancies in the pro-light rail arguements too. First they say it will reduce congestion, then they say it will "mitigate" congestion and then they call it an "option". My use of the North corridor was example that likely applies to the south too. We can expect the population of Rock Hill and other SC towns to grow dramatically in the next decades. So, how will a light rail line that starts off South Blvd and is 1 mile from I-485 exactly reduce I-77 congestion in southern Mecklenburg? Do you really think thousands of SC residents will drive to the South Corridor line and use it? Would that not shift congestion to another area instead of eliminating it?

Also, does spending $9 BB to transport only a fraction of the commuting population really make sense? This is not a zero sum situation...money spent on LTR cannot be spent on other priorities (...expansion of government services, parks, police, fire, et. al).

Anonymous said...

LTR opponents: please help me out here.....I'm just not gettin' it. It SEEMS (please correct me if I'm misunderstanding) that the major objection to the LTR project is not that it's a horrible thing in itself --- but rather that it's an irresponsible & disproportionate waste of money.

Now, I'm thinking, hmmmm, what other examples can I come up with where huge start-up programs required (even wasted, by some accounts) astronomical amounts of money, with modest gains to show, if at all, with the premise that the groundwork being laid would pay off in efficiency as the project's momentum built? Let's see: how about research for a cancer cure? the race to the moon? the development of the internal combustion engine? the war on terrorism?

The point, K. Rogers, is that we are not building a form of mass transit designed to serve one thin geographical slice of Charlotte from uptown to the inside of 485. We are taking the first steps --- the first, painful, costly, controversial steps, in building a broad system that will eventually prove its worth so much that those communities beyond the fringes of it, those Rock Hills and those Mooresvilles, overwhelmed by suburban sprawl, will be itching to join in. It'll be a system that encourages our expanding population, those who WANT to, to realign their housing choices to take advantage of proximity to it, and in so doing keep sprawl from destroying what is still good about Charlotte.

All y'all's good intentions to try and hold the LTR project's managers to better accountability is noble. Unfortunately, as someone earlier pointed out, you can't just simply turn an ongoing project like this on & off like a tap, based on the prevailing mood of the citizenry as it ebbs & flows. Imagine if Boston's Big Dig (ignoring, for a moment, its unrelated other highly-publicized problems) had been on-again, off-again, on-again, determined by a referendum every November.

Please, please, try to take the long view of transit, and be willing to invest for the future, for my kids and your kids to be able to live in a city that still 'works' 30 years from now.

Anonymous said...

We are now equating our light rail system to the race to the moon in the late 1950's-1970's? And the pro-light railers are calling us right wing lunatics.

Hello...kettle...this is pot...your black.

Considering the current crew we have runing CATS, I think NASA engineers can rest easily at night that they won't lose their jobs.

Anonymous said...

To Anon. 6:39 ---

Rather than cherry-picking your points to make the other side seem foolish, how 'bout you address his post with an intelligent comprehensive reply?

Oh, and yeah --- I also think there are a lot of similarities between the two, in the sense that both are meant to take advantage of newer technology to advance the quality of life for a society, by working cooperatively for the common good. A foreign concept to you selfish Luddites, I guess.

Anonymous said...

First they say it will reduce congestion, then they say it will "mitigate" congestion and then they call it an "option".

If you are going to ignore or misconstrue other people's posts, just leave the issue alone. The quote above is clearly not an accurate summary of the discussion to date, as anyone following the conversation can see.

My use of the North corridor was example that likely applies to the south too.

You said that the congestion of I-77 will be unaffected because the North Line will only carry 6k people per day. This ignored the staggeringly obvious: a much larger South Line would simultaneously be relieving the other leg of I-77 traffic. It was a bad argument from the beginning and you're going to make it worse if you persist in defending it.

Do you really think thousands of SC residents will drive to the South Corridor line and use it?

If I were a Rock Hill resident going uptown, I would MUCH sooner park & ride the rail line than spend an hour in interstate traffic. As someone who drives I-77 two ways every day, I can tell you right now that as soon as the rail line is up and running I will be on it.

Would that not shift congestion to another area instead of eliminating it?

It will shift cars off the road and into parking lots; it will shift butts off the road and into train cars. I don't see how you can say this is "shifting" congestion.

Also, does spending $9 BB to transport only a fraction of the commuting population really make sense?

You could apply that logic to any transportation initiative. Do you want to stop 485 construction? Close the airport? Shut down the Gold Rush? Stop paving roads? Any of these projects serve only a portion of the commuting population, yet they are all vital to the community at large. When the rail system is finished it will have a profound impact on the city in the same manner as 485 and the airport. What more do you want from a freaking train system?

I'm starting to wonder if it would even be possible for any transit initiative to make the right wing happy.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:00 a.m.: no, I sincerely think it would not be possible to find any transit (by which you mean "mass transit") initiative that'd be endorsed by the Right, b/c by definition it refers to a system designed to serve communities of people, rather than focused on each individual citizen's sole convenience. Those opposed to rail are no more basing their objection on a length of track & some railcars and their dollar costs, than those supporting the rail project.........with the former group, it is a metaphor for individual rights, which are inordinately revered above all other concerns, and the perceived threat to them....in the latter case, it's about the progress of creating an attractive mobility system that provides more fairness to kids, old people, those who can't afford cars, those wealthier who can, but choose to cut back on traffic, pollution, wasted time, and aggravation behind the wheel.

Once November's come & gone, this same idealogical argument will continue with some other metaphor in its place.

Anonymous said...

The only reason the right wing doesn't like buses and rail is that it provides an egalitarian setting in this city. The mixing of races, income levels, people from different parts of town, etc is a threat to them. They can hide behind their gated communities our out in the woods, and they want to impose that way of thinking on the rest of us. it's the same reason they don't like parks, schools, and arenas, or any other place that doesn't have 'exclusivity' for their kind.

For the record, I know many Republicans that are just as excited about the light rail opening as us progressive/liberal/ socialist/commie/put your prejorative label here. If those people and the business community are supporting this, that must really be driving these nutcases even crazier. When the referendum fails, they will probably spontaniously combust (we can only hope).

Anonymous said...

From the far right,

Buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads,
buses and roads.

The listed two serve people efficiently.

Light Rail is a waste of money.

The attacks on those supporting repeal of the tax, as racist right wingers are meanspirited and wrong.

But what else can one expect?

Anonymous said...

^ Buses and roads for a city of 2 million. Nice plan.

Anonymous said...

Oh, yes, something else intelligent from the rail at all costs lobby, no buses or roads in a city of 2 million, ONLY RAIL.

Anonymous said...

^ WTF?

Anonymous said...

The last I looked, Charlotte was not anywhere near 2 million in population.

You are likely referring to the regional numbers used by the US Census. This includes surrounding counties (ie: Gaston, Cabarrus, et. al) and part of SC (Ft. Mill, Rock Hill, et. al).

My question to you: why should I have to pay for LTR to haul people from Gaston, Cabarrus and South Carolina? Let them pay their own way.

Anonymous said...

^ Same reason you're paying for a giant interstate beltway to move people from other counties (and states) around, into, and out of Meck. County: because it's vital to the region's economic health to have an organized method of handling traffic.

BTW, the whole point of the 1/2 cent SALES tax is that county residents don't bear the entire burden of the system's cost. Since people outside the county are using it, they are charged equally for its construction. Seems fair to me (a lot more fair than repealing the tax and dumping the entire burden on Mecklenburg taxpayers, which is of course the recommended course of action from suburban conservative elements who have no vested interest in the health of the urban area).

Anonymous said...

Wow...so you are telling me that outsiders are paying MOST of the $62 MM? Really? Amazing.

As far I knew, there are Targets, Harris Teeters and other places to shop in those areas too. I did not know people would "commute" to shop in Charlotte.

Show me the data to support your conclusion.

Anonymous said...

^ Nobody said outsiders were paying "most" of it. They are paying SOME of it, just as they will be SOME of the riders (fairness is key, remember?).

And yes, people from outside Mecklenburg spend money inside Mecklenburg. Every commuter from Rock Hill or Gastonia or Concord that stops and buys a Snickers on the way home (or an Armani suit or a plane ticket or whatever else) is putting money in the pot. For that matter, non-resident tourists are even chipping in with every visit.

It's so patently absurd to suggest that Mecklenburg residents are the only ones who spend money inside the county that data is not necessary to refute the argument. Use your God-given common sense.

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huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
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she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
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teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
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twinks for cash -
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all internal -
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asian 1on1 -
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bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
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diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
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first time swallows -
ftv girls -
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gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
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her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
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tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
couples seduce teens -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
first time swallows -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
gang bang squad -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
gay blind date sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
gay college sex parties -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first anal sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first big cock -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first dp -
all internal -

Anonymous said...

american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
her first lesbian sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first facial -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first gay sex -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
his first huge cock -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
housewife bangers -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
huge boobs galore -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
insane cock brothas -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
just facials -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -

Anonymous said...

teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
milf seeker -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
porn stud search -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
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naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
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tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
she got pimped -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
squirt hunter -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
teens for cash -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
twinks for cash -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -


















all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -

Anonymous said...

bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
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Anonymous said...

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seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
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tamed teens -
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teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
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wild fuck toys -
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college fuckfest -
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couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -
neighbor affair -
orgy sex parties -
porn stud search -
prime cups -
rectal rooter -
seduced by a cougar -
she got pimped -
simpson twins -
so cal coeds -
sperm swap -
squirt hunter -
tamed teens -
teen brazil -
teens for cash -
teen topanga -
texas twins -
trixie teen -
twinks for cash -
virgin teen lesbians -
wild fuck toys -
all internal -
american daydreams -
asian 1on1 -
asian parade -
ass masterpiece -
ass traffic -
backseat bangers -
bang boat -
black cocks white sluts -
boob exam scam -
bookworm bitches -
border bangers -
bubble butts galore -
college fuckfest -
college wild parties -
couples seduce teens -
diary of a milf -
dirty latina maids -
fast times at nau -
first time swallows -
ftv girls -
gangbang squad -
gay blind date sex -
gay college sex parties -
give me pink -
her first anal sex -
her first big cock -
her first dp -
her first lesbian sex -
his first facial -
his first gay sex -
his first huge cock -
hot campus teens -
housewife 1on1 -
housewife bangers -
huge boobs galore -
insane cock brothas -
just facials -
latin adultery -
little april -
little summer -
met art -
milf seeker -
milton twins -
more gonzo -
my first sex teacher -
my friends hot mom -
my naughty latin maid -
my sex tour -
my sisters hot friend -
naughty allie -
naughty america vip -
naughty bookworms -
naughty drive thru -
naughty julie -
naughty office -