South Charlotte neighborhood activist Angela Pumarada shares her perspective, after reading my column of Feb. 17, “Got enough schools? Roads? No? Read on.”
Pumarada, like many who live in fast-growing Charlotte, is fed up with development that gets a green light when we lack enough schools, roads, or other infrastructure to serve it.
But before I get to Angela’s remarks, Jonathan Wells of the city planning department says if you’d like to take that survey on infrastructure needs online, it’s posted now. Here’s a link.
Here’s what Angela said in an e-mail to me:
Over the years I have fought rezoning petitions and won. I have attended meetings with planning staff and developers. One time, at one of those 6 p.m. meetings, I was one of three non-developers in the room. At that meeting I was amazed at how developers argued every change [then-Planning Director] Martin Cramton proposed and how they got their way every single time. Stores the size of Target are allowed pretty much anywhere.
I was involved when the General Development Policies were updated a few years ago. Those are the ones with the infamous grid with points [which make a proposal more likely to win planners’ recommendation] for when a school is nearby. I witnessed how one major developer argued for points when farmland was across from a proposed development and there was not enough infrastructure to get a point, saying planners should envision the future and give points for what could be built there someday. Do city planners have a crystal ball they can consult? I would like to have one of those.
Residents get sick and tired of the developers getting their way. I have an acquaintance who tried hard to get the City Council to adopt an adequate facilities ordinance, but nobody wants to take the heat. Impact fees are taboo here. Other communities thrive even when impact fees are in place. Developers there build schools and roads and some pay a hefty fee to build houses.
In Charlotte, developers line their pockets with money, then walk away, leaving an undue tax burden on local residents. They argue impact fees are taxes on new residents and that taxes should be spread among all citizens. That is hogwash. New development should pay for itself when it comes to schools, roads, parks, fire stations, libraries, etc.
My neighborhood around The Arboretum is pretty much built out and we are seeing incredible traffic issues. With a few newer schools, we are seeing fewer trailers. I feel sorry for the residents of the Ballantyne area.
As far as attending meetings, Charlotte should allow for meetings at other times besides 6 p.m. I can go to an occasional meeting at that time but I cannot commit to regular meetings at 6 p.m.
If the city wants input, they can hold two sessions, one in the morning and one in the evening. I am sure I can get a few people there during the day.
I will be contacting Jonathan Wells and asking for more information on the planned nfrastructure discussions.
Friday, February 23, 2007
'Developers ... got their way every single time'
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Do developers win every time? While I don't think so, they do win most of the time. And I believe the reason is profit, and that is ok! We live in a consumer society, and profit is not a bad word.
I would think that landowners also profit from these developments as well. And that is ok as well.
Planning is an ever changing road map. It used to be that we wanted Super Blocks, and Cul de Sac's, but no more. Things change, needs change, and the grass on the other side is always changing.
What I liked about Angelas eMail was that she cares, and tries. I was struck by the comment that only she and 2 others were at a meeting that was stacked with developers. Where was everyone else?
More people need to be activists in order for people to make a difference.
Keep on keeping on Angela!
UD
How true...and how sad for our region..."Developers...got their way every single time".
As bad as it is in Charlotte, it's far worse in Union County. Our five-member board of county commissioners once again has a "developer majority": two of them are developers, a third is a big land speculator, and at least two of them received tens of thousands of dollars in campaign donations from other developers and big landowners.
In just a few months, they have dismantled the planning board and board of adjustment, and are in the process of replacing those boards with a majority of developers; have illegally attempted to repeal a municipality's legally-held zoning authority because a number of developers don't like it; have gutted the county's adequate public facilities ordinance, a document that requires a potential development to meet a test of adequate school capacity before the subdivision is approved; have created a board to guide water and sewer construction and have stacked it with a majority of developers; have fired the longtime county attotrney and replaced him with their own personal attorney; have hired a political crony as a paid "spin consultant" at $75/hr of taxpayer money to try to dress up their sleazy image and make their miserable and embarassing antics look presentable to the public; and have already subjected the county to two potentially huge lawsuits over the municipal zoning authority conflict and a $600,000 hit regarding the former county manager's salary.
Pretty impressive for a "gang of three" that just took office on December 4, 2006, huh?
Just imagine the favors developers are going to be getting here in Union County over the next two years. Taxes will be through the roof, the roads will be impassable, the schools will all be trailer parks serving lunch at 9:30 AM, our environmental quality will resemble that of a sewer, and every scrap of open land will be covered by houses.
Developers own Union County. They are subjected to no regulation, no accountability, and no oversight. They do whatever they want. They control everything. Their massive profits are subsidized by the taxpayers. Their piles of money enable them to buy most elected offices for themselves and their cronies.
It's not a pretty picture, and those of us who are terrified by this menace have no idea what to do about it any more.
Get over it folks. Charlotte is one of the fastest growing cities in the country and the South Side and Union County are two of the fastest growing parts of the city. When you moved to the hottest part of town, you should have realized that many others thought it was the hottest part of town too. Developers wouldn't want to build there if people didn't want to live there. Indeed, traffic and school crowding are issues, but on the flip side, I bet your property values are shooting skyward as well. I don't hear any complaints about that from any of you.
If you want low stress country living, move about 65 miles away from town. If you want to live somewhare without rampant development, move to Detriot, Hartford or Buffalo. Those three cities, and many like them, would kill to have the problems we are having.
Danimal
Grow or die.
I'd rather we have too much growth than low growth.
To grow or not to grow.
The question restated, and originally from another, is: would you rather have the problems of growth or otherwise?
It is not necessary to have growth to have a successful society, or community. However, without growth the differential in wages dissapears and the opportunities to make disproportionate sums of money from development and associated industries also dissapears. As money, more exactly, what money buys is very desirable for some, especially when others cannot afford similar items, those people who benefit from the economic distortions created by growth will continue to push for growth.
Those who lose are generally not politically connected enough, active enough etc.
Using bell curve analysis, there are a top few who benefit greatly, those in the next tier who benefit some, and those below.
As those at the top are the ones buying the votes of the elected officials, either directly or indirectly, we can only expect a continuation of policies which will drive land prices upward along with associated ills.
The good side is only, ONLY, more money in the hands of some.
As these problems are exacerbated by the type of government we have, (exclusively two party) thank your duly elected demo/publican.
It is implied by this blog and many of the responses that growth, development, and developers themselves are only bad when they are working in the suburbs.
I remember going to the MTC meet back in November where our elected officials "voted" unanimously to continue the light rail fiasco. At least 90% of the speakers were developers, land speculators, house flippers, or neighborhood representatives interested in growth - interested in growth that benefited them, and only them, that is. I remember because I sat through all 45 of them at the meeting at the government center.
It was a disgusting display as millionaire after millionaire asked for government support of their speculation - just to put more money in their own pockets.
So, as Lewis and many others have pointed out, our public officials are bought and sold by the developer lobby. However, I want to clarify that it is ALL facets of the developer lobby, not just the suburban developers.
So, the question here is what can people do about that? What can honest individual citizens do when their elected officials won't listen?
Approaching 40,000 thousand people in Mecklenburg County have already figured it out. They are not as stupid as their government officials think they are. Each of them is an activist. Each of them has made a choice to be heard.
I'm talking about the transit tax repeal petition.
I personally have handed out hundreds of the petitions for others to sign and return. I have been thanked by many people along the way for making them aware of the effort. The petitions are flowing in at a surprising rate.
Remember, activism comes in many different forms, and a few people can make a difference. Fight for what you believe is right. Don’t whine if you lose. Show up at government meetings. Make your voice heard.
^ Rick, nobody here is talking about the light rail situation. For the love of Pete, let it drop already. You have hijacked these conversations enough with your personal agenda.
It will interesting how Mary Newsom and the editorial board portray the light rail repeal "activism". I recall that a few months ago Mary Newsom was bemoaning the lack of "activism" in this community.
This is the first true grass roots activism in living memory to change the direction of government and go around the politicians. It will be interesting to see how the Charlotte Observer covers this and how they spin their POV in the editorial pages.
Will they stick to issues and encourage a true debate on the pros and cons of light rail, costs, development subsidies, ticket subsidies, etc?
Or will they make it personal and attack people in a negative way? Mary Newsom has a habit of taking these things very personally and going off the deep end to make personal attacks.
We will see. The coming debate will likely reveal the character, or lack of character, of many in this community.
Those fighting both light rail and development are ususally the same ones fighting anything and everything that is steering Charlotte toward beciming a much more metropolitan city. Get over it folks, you can keep fighting but the days of Charlotte being a WASPy Southern town are over. Yankees, foreigners, gays, and many others are still going to be moving in and they will be moving into your neighborhoods, subdivisions and highrises. They will be riding around town on your roads, beltways and whatever public transit we have. They will be shopping at wal-marts, IKEA's and any other storw that comes into town and their kids will be going to your schools whether you build them or not. You can either be part of and embrace the progress this city is taking or continue to fight your losing battles no matter how many petitions you file or blogs you write. Even better, if you don't like it, you can move to an outlying area or some other provincial town that doesn't want to change, though the economics probably won't be in your favor. I am all for Charlotte becoming the next Atlanta or Chicago, especially if it makes all you sniveling reactionaries spew venom at anything that is different from your narrow view of the world.
Progressive Charlottean
To the last Anonymous:
You sign your post as "Progressive Charlottean" but your content comes across as truly intolerant and closed minded.
Please try to keep an open mind on these topics instead of being so intolerant to the views of others. There is no need for you to descend into hate speech or ad hominem attacks. Please try to keep yourself under control.
Yeah, whatever
Can we please have JUST ONE discussion here that doesn't revolve around light rail? Some of you seem to have an obsession with this one issue. Go see a therapist and let the rest of us enjoy a decent conversation.
"This is the first true grass roots activism in living memory to change the direction of government and go around the politicians. "
No, it's not. There has been grassroots activism on all sorts of issues, from the arena to the ASC to the public school system. Don't try to make your cause something special by ignoring the hard work of others.
Time to get this thread back on topic.
I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about developers getting their way and the individual having no say in what happens in county government.
My post was directly to those points. Basically, if you are not lazy and whiney, you can actually get things done. Didn't Angela's email talk about that? I thought it did. Didn't UD say she should keep on doing it? I agree with him. She should. The only part of her email that I disagree with would be more government meetings. Who cares? They never listen anyway.
As for Progressive Charlottean's remarks, they are par for the course for most knee-jerk liberals. When they don't have a point, they call you a racist or bigot in hopes it will shut you up. It's their way of stopping free speech that they don't like. Their claims don't need any basis in reality. Honesty never gets in their way.
By the way, notice that his comments had absolutely nothing to do with anything I said, development, developers, their power or activism. So, I ask - Who's off topic?
Anyway, activism directed at Charlotte's growing pains will be on the rise here in coming years. You just may not always agree with it. There will be action directed at our failing schools, our rising crime, our failed justice system (50% of felonies are dismissed in CharMeck as of 2003 data), our traffic and our polution (lrt doesn't honestly address these last 2, that's why I'm against it).
Calling people like me names won't help your cause, but it will help mine.
Last anon, you are right. This current effort is building on the work of others. I don't think any insult was intended.
OK, let me get this straight, when a conservative spews hateful comments on talk radio, Fox News, the Rhino Times, or various blogs, it is simply an average citizen taking a stand against powerful business and politicians. When a liberal shoots back just as much a bombastic comment, they are a knee jerk socialist who is trying to stifle dialogue. Yeah....right.
More often then not, I agree with Rick (and the other conservatives) over Mary in many cases on this blog. Many other times, I deeply disagree.
Getting back to the topic at hand, developers are being called evil, self serving, greedy monsters who are destroying some perceived 'quality of life' that Charlotte is supposedly known for. The local government, be it Charlotte, Union County, or some other town of choice are lap dogs to this 'evil' lobby. Could it not be possible that business and government working together and getting things done in a free market system seems to be the most distressing issue to some of the posters here? Why is that?
I know there is a faction in this city that would assume we all still lived in log cabins and rode on dirt roads. They fought the airport in the 70's from building a new runway and terminal. They fought road widenings and I-485 in '80's. They fought Uptown revitalization and investment in the 90's. Now they are fighting our expanding public transit initiative today. They lost to progress the first three times, and based on similar initiatives in other cities, their chance on the latest is rather spotty.
I am not teeming with the big bucks that some of these developers and other big business fat cats have, but I do know most of my local and state government officials on a first name basis. I have felt that my voice and comments have been listened to and considered just as much as any of these bigwigs. If you don't like what's going on, they are just a phone call or e-mail away. Trust me, they listen.
I applaud any grass roots effort to take on 'the man' and I will happily walk along many of the activists. I will also fight hard against any initiative I think is detrimental to this city.
I am very much pro growth and development. Charlotte has its share of problems, but I think the city is now the best it's ever been in my 20 years around here.
Within a 30 mile radius, you can live in a highrise, in a suburban tract house of any size, or a farm. If you don't like how one city, county or state is running itself, you can move to another one just minutes away. There is a place for any type of lifestyle in this region. Find the one that fits you best.
Growth and development is all around you whether you like it or not. You can keep fighting it and lose, or you can play the system in your favor and adjust accordingly. The choice is yours. Just don't ruin it for everyone else.
Danimal
Danimal, good post. I think I would agree with the bulk of it. I personally favor healthy growth in this region. But at the same time, I think it is a fair arguement for Rick and others to say that Light Rail and that sort of subsidized/questionable development does NOT equal healthy development. Healthy development would occur if the city/county would focus on crime, education and other core government responsibilities.
Some would argue that light rail is transit. Others would argue that light rail has almost nothing to do with transit.
It will be a fun debate this year. According to WBT radio, the petition effort has 40,000 sigantures and they only need 48,000 to force it on the ballot.
Danimal says;"
Getting back to the topic at hand, developers are being called evil, self serving, greedy monsters who are destroying some perceived 'quality of life' that Charlotte is supposedly known for. The local government, be it Charlotte, Union County, or some other town of choice are lap dogs to this 'evil' lobby. Could it not be possible that business and government working together and getting things done in a free market system seems to be the most distressing issue to some of the posters here? Why is that?"
"WHY is that?" is not at rhetorical question. The answer lies in how people use power to advance their on position at the expense of others. As described in my previous post, the earnings differential between some groups and others is the basis for the continued push for growth. Developers and all those who benefit from this, use government to enhance their position. Thus they use force, government being the only legitimate user of force.
When others oppose these positions, trying to get government to take different positions, we are decried. But let us pretend the naysayers had as much influence with government as Danimal would have us believe. Growth would slow, taxes would be lower, infrastruture wouldn't be constantly in arrears, there wouldn't be an arena downtown, there would be less waste in government, and there would be an equal treatment of the citizenry by government as opposed to the favoritism now shown.
This issues are what many 'activists' work towards. They seem incompatible with the growth advocated by some, but are in fact necessary. So I return the question: Why are those who want government to serve all equally decried by those who seem to believe developers etc, are the only purveyors of truth?
If I were a developer, I would wish for continued unbridled growth of former farmlands into 1000 home developments, easier to plan, easier to manage and build, and greater profits.
One of the outcomes of rail is a permanent line that will help to eliminate the effect of an area turning to blight. There are so many areas that fall out of favor, and slowly die as people move out. A nearby rail station will help to keep those neightorhoods active and attractive to next generation homeowners, regardless of their language.
As for subsidizing, there are certainly posters here that have not been to a library in years, yet that is a strict subsidy. Do you think the fines pay for new books or staff?
In this country that has been built on people being able to make a profit, why are people seeking to profit so vilified? Does anyone remember Earle Village? Would you rather have seen it remain so the developers did not make a profit?
The continued growth in this area will affect us all, and in general should enrich us all. I have lived in dying northern cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Rochester, Youngstown, etc. and can tell you that it is not a pretty site. No developers getting their way there, in fact, nothing is happening.
We may not like the looks of an IKEA store, or having a Starbucks on every corner, or condominiums sprouting up in our neighborhood, or more cars on the road, or more sports teams in our city, but by almost every measurement of success we are succeeding as a city.
My reference to Angela was that I appreciate that she took her fight public where it mattered, to people who can and do make decisions in this city. She did not hide behind an anonymous label in an obscure blog.
UD
Uncle Dennis,
South Blvd light rail should be an interesting experiment to watch over the next few years. Regardless of whether the sales tax is repealed or not, that line will be completed and will operate. We will be able to see how development happens, the operating costs, the ridership numbers, etc.
But before plunging forward with more lines, we really need to see how light rail works here. It has been a huge failure in so many other cities that we should be very careful prior to making any binding committments to build more.
I don't think anyone is advocating zero growth -- what they are advocating is that those who benefit from development should pay for it. And the "new property taxes" don't even make a dent in providing schools and infrastructure. Why should I be taxed out of my home to line the pockets of developers? Or so the suburbanites can have a cheap cookie cutter home? I have to pay my own way and so should they. I am shocked that Union county government is so blatantly run by development interests -- someone needs to organize and clean house. Or sue.
Growth is good, but not uncontrolled growth. In the body, when tissues grow in an out-of-controll way, doctors call it a 'tumor' or 'cancer'.
First
Thank you Rebecca! Someone who can read and not read into.
Responding to this by UD " but by almost every measurement of success we are succeeding as a city."
Measuring success requires defining success. Success in this context is a term used in association with material gain.
Perhaps one should measure happiness, or equality of application of law, or quality of life, or low taxes or freedom, gridlock, pollution, children per female, or any number of things which are life associated without being dependant upon material gain.
'Success' can thus be seen as the singular part of the puzzle it is. It is certainly not definitive.
UD - profit is good when it is come by HONESTLY. What most developers are doing is STEALING - and it is my pocket and yours they are picking. Corruption is corruption and should not be tolerated, even if it is "for the sake of growth". And Lewis it does not matter what party - folks of both stripes run for office to get a piece of the action - for the money and the prestige. Avarice and Hubris drive our government today. Look at what happened to Black -- and I think every pol today is running the same scams he is going down for. Look at the post on Union County - that is just as wrong as what Black did. And the libertarians will never be taken seriously b/c they eschew this 'gotta get me some ' mentality - most voters are as corrupt as the pols they elect . They think as long as he is stealing for me/my district - go for it! ("Profit is good")
Whoa Rebecca and Lewis, Now it's not only the pols and deveolpers that are corrupt and greedy, but it's the voters too. Well a majority of voters don't seem to have as much a problems with growth, development, taxes, and everything else under the sun that is getting your goats. It must be tough being voices in the wilderness. we're lookig out for y'all though. Relax. Everything will be just fine ;) .
anon 2:26 4:31
Dear Anonymous,
I suppose I should thank you for taking care of me.
That check you wrote to the Char/Meck tax collector was certainly appreciated.
I am sure there are many more things you imagine you do for me, but let us be clear, as much as you imagine, it is only leftovers from overindulgences from your latter adolescent years.
But thank you for the thought.
I heard on WBT radio this afternoon that 32,000 signatures have been handed in. They only need 48,000 to get it on the ballot. It looks like the developers might be upset about this one. So much for getting their way every single time.
I still do not see how repealing the sales tax will do anything but cause a fiscal catastrophe for the city. It is amazing how some people will cut off their nose to spite their face.
If the had not spent every last single dollar on such frivilous items, then there would not be such an issue.
This city/county just tosses away hundreds of millions of dollars on things unrelated to government.
Don't be surprised when the serfs have a minor revolt.
Easy now guys. All those signatures have to be verified and a referendum still has to take place. Similar referenda took place in Seattle and Dallas, yet the voters in those cities decided to stay the course with their transit plans. Also remember that the 1/2 cent sales tax is not only for light rail, but for numerous improvements to the bus system as well...many improvements that have taken place since 1998. Don't believe everything the WBT dittoheads tell you.
I agree. It will be a healthy debate to have if it is on the ballot. I suspect it will force some serious reforms at CATS in order to regain public support and retain the sales tax. If nothing else, that makes it worthwhile.
If they really do have 32,000 signatures, that itself is alarming. CATS is in real trouble if that many people are willing to sign a petition to cancel their funding for trains.
Is it really worth it to CATS to place the bus system at risk also? What sort of reforms would need to happen to restore public confidence?
Anonymous Says: What sort of reforms would need to happen to restore public confidence?
This is the only issue, and not just about light rail, but about everything in this blog and similar others.
People want confidence in their government and it isn't given them. CMS - a perfect example. What happened to the Gantt and Martin committee recommendations?
Nothing.
What happened after the vote on the downtown bungle? Highhanded reversal.
The record is one of arrogance and indifference except where certain special interests are concerned.
The vote against the light rail will be similar to the one against the CMS bonds. People will vote no for more reasons than light rail waste as it is an opportunity to express outrage over other mistreatments.
Lewis
Progressive Charlottean and anyone else who's going to get their politically correct "progressive" undergarments in a wad, I didn't restart this conversion with the WBT reference. But...
Wow, you guys sound a little worried. Let me lay it out for you.
In 1998 the vote was only 58% - 42% in favor of the trains. That sounds like a lot, but in reality it isn't.
58% voted for it because they were lied to on many fronts.
Fictional South Line Cost: $220 million.
Real South Line Cost: $460+ million.
Fictional Overall Cost: $1.5B for the whole system.
Reality: $8B for the whole sysem.
Fictional Schedule: 2020
Less Fictional Schedule 2025
Reality: When I'm old and grey.
Fictional Help for the most needy areas of our city - The Trolly.
Reality Screwing: East/West Trolly now delayed till 2023. Just wait until the people in those areas understand that. Think they'll still be for the plan that puts them last in line?
Fictional Budget: "This money supports the bus system"
Real Budget: If whole train system is built, the trains' budget deficits will eat up ALL of the money. There is NO long-term money for buses anyway without further tax increases.
So, I ask you...
42% voted against it. Think they've changed their minds?
Newcomers to the area are putting their kids in over crowded schools, and constantly hear about CATS mismanagement. Think they want billions for trains?
There will be a $500 million CMS bond on the ballot as well. Think people might want to save a few tax dolloars elsewhere?
Much of the other 58% who voted for the trains, now realize that they were LIED to in 1998. Most people don't like that. I don't think they will say, "OK, keep screwing me."
Once this is on the ballot, and it will be, it will only take a little education about the lies for people to get really worked up. I still contend that CATS's best hope is delivery. Get the train actully open, and they have a chance. Otherwise, their lies will do them in.
There is no chance that South Blvd will be finished prior to November 2007. In fact, Ron Tober seems to be preparing the city council for more delays. He was VERY conditional about some of his promises.
Meanwhile, back at the issue.....
Can anyone here detail the profit margins of any of the developers they are condeming?
Can anyone here determine what is a fair profit margin (sounds like a communist 5 year plan)?
Does anyone here have a better idea, and are they willing to put up the money to make it happen?
Last time I heard a report from Michael Smith, there was about $5 BILLION being invested in Charlotte right now, and the vast majority of that is private investment. That would be these greedy investors, building traps no doubt, to strip us of our money.
If you feel that the govco as it is called should not pay for infrastructure improvements for some of that development, then don't complain when other infrastructure developments around you do not get funded. Infrastrucrure is infrastructure, and is designed to benefit any who come across it.
The problem with fractional politics as opposed to representative democracy is that all sides only want what is best for them, damn everyone else.
Most developers plan in advance for 20% profit margins or higher. Then with all of the unexpected costs or delays which happen, they are lucky to make a 10% return.
Most developers use a large amount of leverage via bank loans. So if their development doesn't sell or lease on a specific schedule, it is very easy to lose your shirt. In a booming market, any idiot can make money. But when the markets turns downward, many of these guys go bankrupt if they get caught with a large inventory of unsold units or unleased space.
On another quick note:
Hey Uncle D,
I read the article about you and the fact that you were carless. I've lived uptown for almost four years now and finally dumped the car a few weeks ago. I never used it except to commute 12 miles R/T per day. Besides that the car sat.
Express bus for me and soon the rail. It's been great getting more exercise. Not to mention the savings I will have in gas, insurance, maintenance and taxes.
The enviro benefits are obvious as well. Now I travel with 50 or more in a vehicle instead of solo.
I use to get around via bus/train up North but I have been in the South now for almost 20 years.
I guess I sort of got lazy ?
Thanks for the push !
UD,
I don't think anyone was concerned about profit margins, but about collusion. The arena (Bob Johnson) is subsidized as is the Pete Pappas Kings Dr development as are others.
This is not infrastructure but direct subsidies using taxpayer's money to help special interests.
Which is not the same as a private business doing it at their own risk.
Rick continually brings up rail lite as it bothers him. It is a direct subsidy to many businesses; indirect to others.
Basic infrastructure is separate. Roads, water/sewage, police and fire protection, are Charlotte services which should be provided, not buying the land and using taxpayer money to help the politically connected. Can you not discern the difference between the two?
And certainly we each seek our own best interests. Capitalism is based on that fact. It is when govco is used to help one above the others that I, and those others, have problems with.
On a personal note: Why are you getting excited because people have opinions differing from yours? Is there something wrong with that?
Lewis, UD is getting no more excited about a deffering opinion than you do when someone differs from you or Rick. Most of us don't find you infallible.
Just so nobody challenges anyone to a duel like last time...What I meant by voters being corrupt is that they look the other way when corruption favors them...like people who turn a blind eye to tax increases/revaluations b/c they think they may be able to sell their house for more...or optometrists who gave blank checks to Black and then swore that they believed the new law to require all students to have an eye exam before being allowed to enter school was passed soley "for the children"... Thievery is wrong no matter who is doing the stealing and no matter who is doing the receiving. It is especially grievous when the thieves are the very folks charged with fiduciary responsibility for the taxpayers dollars, and the recipients are doctors, or developers or millionaires like Bob Johnson.
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